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New Sub-Reddit for Ex-Scientologists

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https://www.reddit.com/r/ExScientologist/comments/ero2nk/critical_thinking_question_for_exes/

Why do #AntiCultists shift their terms when you point out no scientific studies affirm the existence of #Brainwashing?

Then, instead of producing the #science that supports it, they shift the conversation to personal attacks on you & tell you that you're "angry" & don't know what you're talking about - while still producing no study.

A discussion with an #AntiCultist on Reddit:

#Scientology
#ScientologytheAftermath
#ExJW
#ExMormon
#Cults
#AntiCults

The #PseudoScience of the #AntiCult Movement

________

***SerialCoffeeDrinker wrote:

Deprogramming more often than not involved kidnapping and holding someone against his will, while hoping he would listen to information that would make him question the group in which he was involved.

The practice has been dumped in large part due to the prosecution of Ted Patrick and some other legal cases. Exit counseling or similar approaches (the odd sounding 'thought reform consultation') have taken its place.

Brainwashing? Philip Zimbardo, Ph D., wrote

"A remarkable thing about cult mind control is that it's so ordinary in the tactics and strategies of social influence employed. They are variants of well-known social psychological principles of compliance, conformity, persuasion, dissonance, reactance, framing, emotional manipulation, and others that are used on all of us daily to entice us: to buy, to try, to donate, to vote, to join, to change, to believe, to love, to hate the enemy."

"Cult mind control is not different in kind from these everyday varieties, but in its greater intensity, persistence, duration, and scope. One difference is in its greater efforts to block quitting the group, by imposing high exit costs, replete with induced phobias of harm, failure, and personal isolation."

________

****Alanzo says:

This is an earlier paragraph from Zimbardo's article, which seems to contradict these later two paragraphs that SerialCoffeeDrinker has posted. (or does it?)

"Cult methods of recruiting, indoctrinating and influencing their members are not exotic forms of mind control, but only more intensely applied mundane tactics of social influence practiced daily by all compliance professionals and societal agents of influence."

And did you catch how the orginal question was about 'brainwashing' but now we're discussing 'mind control'?

• Brainwashing • Mind control • Social Influence • Undue Influence
• Thought Reform • Social Coercion • Hypnosis • Indoctrination

These concepts are all used interchangeably during discussions with true believers of the anti-cult movement. They each remain ill- or un-defined, so they can be switched around like a shell game whenever you try to actually pin down the real world, objective reality that they are trying to warn you about.

But it all sounds so dangerous, and so POWERFUL.

And they say over and over that's it's gonna GITCHA!

But whenever these concepts, whether Brainwashing, Mind control, etc. have been scientifically studied, just like whenever witchcraft has been studied, 'brainwashing' has been found to have no power to make people work against their own interests and for the 'cults' interests. Like witchcraft, lots of people believe in mind control, but just like witchcraft, the science doesn't show it has any power.

So if something like mind control has no power, does something like mind control really exist?

I say no.

I'd like to spend some time getting to the bottom of these concepts so that we can get a real world statement of the concrete (not reified, not metaphorical) dynamics at work when a person joins a minority religion and starts self-identifying as a member of the group.

Do you think SerialCoffeDrinker will allow this kind of scrutiny of his beliefs?

_______

****SerialCoffeeDrinker says:

There is no contradiction in Zimbardo's article. His common sense observations are sound.

Those who in one capacity or another work (e.g. research, counseling, friendship) interact with former cult members know that many have simply walked away from a cult. Others have been 'reasoned out'. Yet others were kicked out. Many need counseling. Many do not. Many get over their experiences quick and easy. Many are affected for years to come and struggle with issues all or not related to 'brainwashing' (or whichever term someone wants to use). Whether or not you believe it exists has no bearing on that.

The way you argue about the semantics involved strongly suggests you are not all that familiar with the issue you are trying to address. You come across as more angry than informed. That is not unusual, but more often than not it makes a discussion like this an exercise in futility.

_____

• INSERTED NOTE: SerialCoffeeDrinker does not take up the idea that the terms keep switching, and that no science underlies brainwashing. Instead, he says I have no idea what I'm talking about and that I'm "angry". Pure adhom - very similar to how #cultists act when you challenge their beliefs, too

_____

I neither have the time nor the interest to pursue the issue with you. If you are truly interested in the subject I suggest you look into the resources available to you through ICSA. That organization includes many members who do not necessarily agree with each other on various cult related topics, including the brainwashing issue. It would benefit you to be better informed about all views on the issue.

_____

• INSERTED NOTE: Very similar to a Scientologist saying that you need to read a book on Scientology before we can examine the scientific basis of Scientology.

_____

As for me, I know from experience that the vast majority of former cult members and others who have been in high demand relationships say they have benefited greatly from exit counseling. Whether lengthy or brief, it gives them a way to understand their experiences, including the process through which they were recruited, influenced to stay, and eventually left.

In parting I should add that I have never charged anyone for exit counseling - though I legally could do so. I have a highly paid, fulltime job (in an unrelated field) that allows me to provide exit counseling services free of charge.

At the same time I know countless people who have benefited greatly from Steve Hassan's books and services. I mention him because I know you do not like his approach, but that does not invalidate his theories and work.

Another book that continues to help many people is Take Back Your Life: Recovering from Cults and Abusive Relationships, by Janja Lalich and Madeleine Tobias.

I wish you well.

_______

*****Alanzo Responded:

There's another concept I left out of the shell game: "high demand relationships".

Because I argue about the semantic games that are played by members of the anti-cult movement regarding the 'brainwashing' issue demonstrates that I have a lot of experience with these issues. Case in point: This thread specifically mentions 'brainwashing' so why is SerialCoffeeDrinker now making points about 'mind control' and 'high demand relationships'? Where did brainwashing go?

It happens every time.

These concepts are not interchangeable. For instance, "undue influence" is a legal term which has exact, real world legal scenarios under which contracts can be deemed invalid. It's part of jurisprudence dating back to English Common Law. You can not make a set of claims for the existence of 'brainwashing' and then switch over to 'undue influence' when the scientific results that disprove brainwashing are brought up.

The reason this bait and switch occurs is because there's no there there, and once that fact is exposed, then they just switch the term. This bait and switch is intellectually dishonest and it proves that there is nothing concrete being claimed. If there was something concrete, then it could be falsified. And it can't.

'Brainwashing' is a belief only. And anti-cult movement counseling consists almost entirely of getting the ex-cult member to simply accept a new set of beliefs about his previous spiritual pursuit, and once he's done that, the anti-cult counselor deems him cured.

But he's not cured. He is worse off with this new toxic anti-cult belief system about himself and his previous experiences.

If the ex-member now goes to war against his previous minority religion, now believing himself to have been "brainwashed" by them, what he used to see as a source of inspiration in his life has been turned into a source of poison. But is it really a poisonous ‘cult’ or just something he grew out of, like graduating from kindergarten?

Moreover, the instilled belief that he was a completely different self (Hassan's "cult self") actually causes damage to the ex-member: Believing he has a "cult" self, with which he is now also at war, actually contributes to dissociative personality disorder. It fractures his self-identity and turns him into a victim with a diseased 'brainwashed' self inside him.

The beliefs of the anti-cult movement are not the only way to see your time in a minority religion. Because the beliefs of the anti cult movement are just that (beliefs, and not facts) in the overwhelming majority of cases, these toxic beliefs are bad for you. I know. I used to use them to “understand” my own time spent in a minority spiritual pursuit. They caused me all kinds of problems until I finally spotted the destruction these beliefs were causing and dumped them.

Questioning these beliefs of the ant-cult movement, and developing a much more constructive understanding, is a vital process which must be accomplished by ex-members who are growing and evolving after experiencing a loss of faith.

Experiencing a loss of faith is catastrophic enough without also having all these damaging beliefs being installed from the anti-cult movement.

Seen on Reddit:

"I am a kid from Sri Lanka, and I want to know. Why do people join cults? Explain like I am five."

Answer:

"Cults" are simply sub-cultures. When a person feels that his mainstream culture does not have what he wants or needs, he begins to look for alternatives to the mainstream in his search for a more meaningful life.

AntiCultists claim people are "brainwashed" to join minority religions. And yet not one scientific study has ever been able to prove the existence of #brainwashing.

Don't buy their crap.

It's just people making meaningful choices for their own lives.

When I was in Kindergarten?
That kindergartener is
A friend of mine

When I graduated high school?
That graduate is a friend of mine

When I joined Scientology?
That guy is a friend of mine

When I left Scientology?
He's a friend of mine, too.

AntiCultists: Don't shun my friends

Some of the ways that the #AntiCult Movement persecutes minority religions in America and Europe.

https://alanzosblog.com/religious-persecution-of-minority-religions-by-dick-anthony/