Tony Ortega Should Publicly Apologize to Carmen Llywelyn

carmen llywelyn
Carmen Llywelyn: Brave Ex-Scientologist Who Speaks Out on the Abuses of Scientology

I’ve had a lot of Ex-Scientologists contact me about their negative experiences in dealing with Tony Ortega, but this one takes the cake.

Carmen Llywelyn is an Ex-Scientologist who has spoken out a lot in the media about the abuses she has seen and suffered in Scientology. She is the author of “Why I Left Scientology” which appeared on Gawker in June of 2015.

She was also interviewed on RADAR Online about her experiences as the then-wife of actor Jason Lee and part of the celebrity clique at the Scientology Celebrity Centre in Hollywood. Her inside account of what it’s like in the center of the bubble of Scientology celebrity was a rare first-hand glimpse into a world so many journalists try to write about, such as Tony Ortega himself, but few ever see.

So why do you think Tony Ortega said this about Carmen Llywelyn on his blog – out of nowhere and prompted by nothing in particular?

tony ortega denigrates carmen llywelyn

And here’s what his flying monkeys chimed in with on Tony’s cue:

carmen llywelyn

In her Open Letter to the Proprietor of Scientology Tony Ortega, Carmen recounts that any contact she had with Tony Ortega consisted of a 10 minute phone call where Tony did most of the talking.

Tony says above “…make of that what you will”.

Here’s what I make of it: This Ex-Scientologist is courageously exposing herself to Scientology Fair Game and warning the public about the abuses she has personally witnessed in Scientology, and while she is in the middle of doing that, Tony Ortega tries to undermine her work in exposing Scientology and discredit her on his blog.

While Tony Ortega has done some good for some Ex-Scientologists, he also does this kind of thing to other Ex-Scientologists, as well.

As a never-in, Tony has no idea what it is like to have been involved in Scientology. And from what I have seen of him, he doesn’t really care to, either. He has repeatedly shown his contempt and disrespect for anyone who would get themselves involved in Scientology, or in any other spiritual activity.

So here’s something Tony Ortega needs to get: Scientology does their very best to humiliate anyone who leaves. On top of that, the experience of losing all your friends, your business contacts, your family members – the whole life that you built during your years as a Scientologist – is an extremely demeaning and degrading experience. Often, it takes years for an Ex-Scientologist to get their self-esteem back after having experienced the business end of Scientology.

But if an Ex-Scientologist summons the courage to speak out in the media, rising above all of that, as Carmen Llywelyn has?

That Ex deserves all the support in the world – and NOT this kind of degradation from a sneering and shallow reporter who has infinite disrespect for the very people he is trying to make a buck off of as a “reporting columnist working the Scientology beat”.

Tony Ortega should publicly apologize to Carmen Llywelyn for trying to undermine her work and discredit her on his blog.


123 thoughts on “Tony Ortega Should Publicly Apologize to Carmen Llywelyn”

  1. I believe the contempt and disrespect is shown for some ex-Scientologists and not others because some basically worship at his feet and he enjoys the adulation. Though he always tries to portray himself as modest. He does play modest very well; but if you look under the veneer in a detached way you’ll see it’s an act.

    When I read Carmen’s Open Letter I totally believed her about the 10 minute phone call and that no extensive interviewing took place. Perhaps he realized her narrative wouldn’t match the one he was creating? Or perhaps she didn’t pay proper ‘respect’ to him? I have no idea and those are assumptions on my part. Only Tony can answer those questions. We know he will not. The comment he made was very akin to ‘fair game’. It’s almost like this is some kind of game to him and he doesn’t realize he’s dealing with real flesh and blood people who have been around the mill and back, are vulnerable, and are trying to regain a sense of a new normal in a life without Scientology.

    If the vulnerabilities can’t be exploited for HIS gain, then perhaps that’s where the discrediting comes into play. I have no idea. I do know there are favorites, as anyone can tell from even short visits to the bunker. For some reason their vulnerability is treated with sensitivity. Why is others’ treated with disdain? How is that ethical journalism to let some kind of personal feelings come through to such an extent? A good example of that is Marty Rathbun. But this is a comment about Carmen.

    Tony reads all the comments posted. He has said that in the bunker. There were commenters posting trying to psychoanalyze Carmen, diagnose her, then someone–no real name given–piped in saying they knew her and she was crazy. Bunkerites lapped that up and took that as truth. Then someone, in this same thread, put forth the conspiracy theory that perhaps the Scientologists had gotten to Carmen AND Marty Rathbun as both were writing against Tony and the bunker around the same time. Cuz basically you’d have to be crazy to not agree with Tony and the bunker group think? It’s called seeing how things really are. Those comments should have been deleted. I bet they’re still there.

    So not only does Tony attempt to fair game and black PR Carmen, he allows commenters to do so too. I’m sure he’d claim it’s free speech. Yet, he tries to claim he was protecting someone from you, Alanzo, who was pointing out their unethical behavior–he claimed it was a threat, and as usual, everyone fell in line and agreed, though they never saw what you had written. It’s hypocrisy and censorship as a general rule.

    Tony would never apologize to Carmen, as I’m sure in his mind he did nothing wrong. He’s the one who has to live with himself. The more people who speak out about questionable ethics on his part, hypocrisy, and how he’ll attempt to influence others against those he doesn’t like–for whatever reason—the more the light will be shown upon the truth about Tony and the bunker. It’s unfortunate his back handed shenanigans will ultimately probably discredit a lot of his good reporting work.

    • Thank you very much for your comment, Miss Tia.

      I do hope Tony does publicly apologize to Carmen. If there ever was a public apology that was deserved, it would be that one.


  2. Miss Tia, Alanzo, thank you. I’ve begun to speak with lawyers about possible litigation against Tony. I believe his sadistic handling of myself & some other ex’s needs to be throughly investigated. People’s rights have been trashed like they’re worthless & this is inhuman. The last time I checked I had the right to privacy & quality of life. I’d also like for the other details about the harassment Ive gone through to come out in public & Im ready to name names. If anyone else is interested in joining suit please let me know. But one thing I’m very adamant about is finding out who this person is at The Bunker who’s lying about knowing me. Let me be clear, this person does not know me & I have no idea that is. I would never be friends with someone so egocentric & cruel to engage in abuse. Not after what Ive been through. This person needs to be exposed & brought to justice. I plan to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law. Ive made no secret that I’ve had a stalker who I know has hacked into my personal phone & endangered me & my family in real life. If anyone can find out who this person is, I would greatly appreciate it because I’ve got a victim impact statement that I can’t wait to read to him. This person has unjustly gone on a campaign to hurt & discredit me. Why? For attention? Because he’s sick? Yes most likely, but that’s not my problem anymore. I will get justice for my children. Thank you guys more than words can express for bringing me that much closer to getting real resolution.

    • Whereas Tony’s comments are unmoderated—which is understandable due to the # of them, the time that would take, etc—those comments made about you Carmen should have been deleted when finally seen! I was, and am still, appalled at that discussion where they trying to dissect your mental health, then that person–with no real name–strolls along and says they knew you, you were crazy and SOLD! They bought it with out looking at the merchandise!

      Those kinds of statements are dangerous, possibly defamatory, but hey, that’s the kind of atmosphere that’s fostered if someone isn’t in the ‘in crowd’. Not to mention the aforementioned conspiracy theory that Scientologists got to you and to Marty, hence why you both criticizing Tony and the Bunker around the same time. Because you’d have to be crazy to criticize Tony and the Bunker OR have been paid by Scientologists to do it! Not that you saw the reality of the situation, saw how lives were being used as toys with no regard that people lives should NOT be a plaything. No ethics, no conscience, no concern about those on the ‘outs’.

      Exploitation of the vulnerable while claiming to be a champion of the vulnerable. I’m sorry I participated for so long. I guess I want to try to ‘make amends’ to ensure people know what goes on now, especially individuals who’ve been impacted, such as yourself Carmen. Ex-Scientologists have already been thru Scientology, I guess they need to know they might, sometimes, have to run the gauntlet at the bunker and try to get thru that. No one should have to go through anything else after Scientology. Just like in Scientology there are good people in the bunker, who do/say things they wouldn’t normally say elsewhere; but the group think takes over.

  3. Thanks Alanzo for bringing this situation regarding Carmen up. For some reason I missed this story last year.

    Suffice it to say that over the last few months I have increasingly become aware that the world of Scientology Critics is deeply flawed. I think it’s mostly due to the never-ins, but the exes such as myself don’t all have clean hands either. All I know is that the rank and file still-ins I personally know are people I’d rather hang out with than many critics. Oh, and these still-ins know that I’m an Ex and have no desire to go back, yet they still don’t disconnect from me or ream me out for “not thinking correctly”. Funny that they are less condemning and more tolerant than many critics and exes on the internet. Hmmmm….

    I wish you all the best Carmen and hope you find resolution soon.

    Oh….and Howdy Miss Tia! I remember you!

    • Welcome Lone Star!

      I know what you mean. That’s been happening to me more and more lately, too. I’m just not feeling the militarism any more. So much has been accomplished in recent years that I’ve found there’s so much more to gain by no longer being at war.

      Good to have you here! 🙂


  4. Oh Miss Tia….They are asking about you over at The Bunker today! Lol… I’m sure it won’t be long for at least one of them to read your post here and say, “WTF?” TheHoleDoesNotExist blew a few weeks ago. Oh my!! Not saying that you have officially blown, but in a way I guess you have. You’ve dared to question The Ortega. Oh my! You definitely need to report to Ethics! Lol….

    Thanks for the welcome Alanzo.

    • Oh yeah, I had some group love bombing going on Saturday. It was weird af how/why I suddenly got all these emails from people I hadn’t heard from–in some cases MONTHS–basically saying the same thing. Now there are a couple bunkerites I do still communicate with (well probably not after they see these comments and my comments at Carmen’s); but this was people I hadn’t communicated with, didn’t really want to and it was just ‘you think I can’t see through this?!’ The time to have sent such emails would have been when it was announced I was stepping down from HC like 3 weeks ago or so. I’m not stupid, though some people think I am! 🙂

      Despite my repeated statements that I am DONE with the bunker, and even scientology watching, I guess some people think they can manipulate me to come back? Not happening. I’m gonna write about my disillusionment with the bunker and how I started to SEE what goes on and the parallels with Scientology later (tomorrow). I can’t stress enough there are very good kind caring people in the bunker (just like Scientology); but they end up doing things they normally wouldn’t do due to the ‘group think’/’hive mentality’ (just like Scientology). I’m ashamed of myself that I didn’t see it before.

      I ‘banned’ myself by deleting my disqus. I also told people, who had asked, I was done with Sci Watching too. I guess some people don’t quite understand when “I’m done” it means “I’m done”. HowdyCon was the last straw for me though, and that was severely affecting my physical health mostly due to the shenanigans of one person (not Tony). I was still reading there when Hole deleted her disqus, after having posted she was happy, then poof, gone. I have heard a few others have done that too. I don’t know nor would wish to guess at why they did that. I can only speak for myself. And I shall. I was somewhat fearful of them–because, like Scientology, they will follow you, fair game you, black PR you, and today I was like “—k this” [I don’t want to swear on your blog Alanzo] “this is ridiculous, if that person who made my life hell for a few months can lack a conscience they continue on their merry way leaving me broken in the rear view mirror, why should I worry about what they’ll do?” I’m already broke, damaged, and I know I can isolate myself from whatever is posted there! 🙂 Can’t see it, don’t know about it! It’d be more a reflection upon them than me anyway.

      NO FEAR!!! Speaking out!! Thank you Alanzo for having this platform! MUCH appreciated!!

      • Miss Tia Wrote:

        “I can’t stress enough there are very good kind caring people in the bunker (just like Scientology); but they end up doing things they normally wouldn’t do due to the ‘group think’/’hive mentality’ (just like Scientology). I’m ashamed of myself that I didn’t see it before.”

        I’ve had the same thing occur to me.

        Getting myself into Scientology, and getting myself out of it, was a profound experience. Most people have never had anything like it in their lives. It can give you a perspective on human existence that few people have.

        Great post, Miss Tia.


    • Bwahahahah!!! Oh my all the ol’ rascals are coming out! So good to see you Dahling!

      What? Is Mark A. Baker going to show up next? Lol… Damn….I hope so!

        • I agree. I’ve missed Mark over the past few years. I’ve missed you as well. You were treated unfairly over there. Unfortunately I was one of the ones who was unfair. That whole groupthink thing. Not using that as an excuse. I’m just aware of it now and as they say, “I’m handling it”.

          • Hi, Lone Star. Thing with you is I never knew if I’d be talking to Jekyll or Hyde any given day. I do appreciate your kind words.

            I finally realized that it eeally wasn’t what I said- but that I was the one saying it. People would go unglued when I wrote the most vanilla sort of post.

            That’s why the Claire Swazey account is closed. My posts are responded to quite differently now.

            • I’ve noticed the same thing with the Alanzo Beingness. My karma from 16 years of Internet criticism keeps haunting me.

              But if Alanzo dies, and comes back as someone completely different: Bing!

              No Alanzo Karma.

          • Yep. So it puts the lie to “it’s always everyone else; it’s never you.”

            Maybe it’s karma (maybe it’s Maybelline), but it’s ultimately the eye of the beholder.

  5. Looks like this is where the Ex-exes are hanging out these days. 🙂
    Fair play to you, Alanzo, I approve of this Crusade!

    • OMG! It’s a Panda-approved Alanzo Crusade!

      I’m floating on air. 🙂

      Thanks for commenting in support of Carmen, Panda.


  6. Oh well…if Panda is showing up then I’m leaving!! Lol…. Of course I kid the Panda.

    (There is definitely a disturbance in the Force tonight!)

  7. Lol. It’s all good, LS, let’s just say that your comment has been noted.
    Now, back on the subject at hand…

  8. The bottom line will be forever, and ever, is that there are no “clears” or “OT’s” as Hubbard said his religion, science, technology, etc, can produce. LOL

    Anyway that is communicated is a thumbs up.

  9. So happy to get some news from Alanzo. I thought you were on vacation on target two playing ping pong with the Commodore around the Van Allen belt just for fun.
    So sorry to hear the news of a stalker bothering Carmen. I wouldn’t try a legal action though. This sounds like an intelligence op. Divide to conquer. I spent many years in the cult of greed and 10 years in OSA. I agree with Tia, it was quite an experience. I had read Kant, Krishnamurti, Huxley and Orwell before I fell into the cauldron and ended up a boiled frog. I didn’t think I was mentally retarded to indulge in such nonsense. The trap is very subtle and Once we are out it takes long to heal. “Show me a f**** clear”. Blogging around and sharing one’s experiences is part of the healing process. My interest in following the demise of the cult is fading away. I don’t have the time but I have a moral debt since I contributed to the Frankenstein religion. Carmen don’t get distracted from the things you love in life, that would make happy those who want to hurt you.

  10. From Feb of 2012 until April of this year I was mostly an ESMBer in the Scilon Watcher world. I was up until very recently a very occasional poster at The Bunker. I would go months and months without even looking at so a lot was said and done there that escaped my attention.

    I wasn’t actively reading The Bunker when you got banned Alanzo. If you were banned for taking up for the grieving mother of the child who committed suicide then that is truly disgusting. But, to be “fair and balanced” I noticed that the Bunkeroo named Snippy_X claims that you were actually banned for “going after a Bunkerista”:

    Snippy_X > Mockingbird • 6 hours ago

    “………Alonzo was not banned for that post about the grieving mother. He was banned for rudely going after a Bunkerista. That removes his right to stand in judgement of other’s behavior and basically negates his arguments above.”

    I of course have no idea who the Bunkerista is, or if this allegation is true or not. As an infamous crusty old cantankerous man on cable TV says, “What say you?”

      • Oh I see who the Bunkerista Snippy_X was referring to now. It was Rachel Bernstein the therapist who essentially helped Ortega to publicly shame and psychoanalyze the grieving mother.

        Pfffft! Nice try Snippy_X.

        Tony O made it clear that it was Bernstein that Alanzo was so “mean” to. Give me a break.

        Absolutely no empathy or sympathy for the grieving mother with the devout Bunkeroos. The Bunker cultists.

        • No I knew it was Cathy Tweed. I just didn’t use her name for whatever reason. I probably should’ve to prevent any confusion. What I didn’t know was who the “Bunkerista” that Snippy_X was talking about. The one in which led Tony to ban you. Once I saw that it was Rachel Bernstein then I know all the attempts to make it look like you were attacking some poor unsuspecting female Bunker poster was and is BS.

          • I see.

            It’s amazing, once you begin to become aware of what Miss Tia calls the “group-think” happening there.

            And everywhere.

            Oh well. If I can leave a cult, they can too. 🙂


  11. Just found your website (thanks to mockingburd on Ortega’s).
    I like reading you, Alanzo.
    So, add me to your frequent readers.

  12. It is deplorable that Tony does such things to people risking so much to speak out. Those who do, do it to help others find solace and find a release themselves. I am sorry to hear that someone who is supposedly there to fight the evils of Scientology treats people who have left and want to help others leave so badly. Not only that he is evading the golden rule. “Do onto others as you would have done to yourself.” If he were to leave and wanted to share his story with this community, he might want to share his story on a site such as his. If he were to be shut down how would he feel?

    This seems to be a fundamental flaw in people. We pick and choose based on personal biases and not content of the message sometimes. Sometimes it boils down to, will this garner me any new business. This is not appropriate in my mind. If your supposed objective is to help free those who have a heavy burden on their shoulders like scientology, at least an acknowledgement would be appropriate. Sadly this is a bad business practice as well. You never know what story will catapult your readership.

    Maybe it’s time for someone else to step up and take on the cult of Scientology. Marty I am sure if you built a site or had someone do so for you, you could have many readers right off the bat. I know I would support your site in any way I can.

  13. Tell you what Al, why don’t you apologise on behalf of Tony and we can all go home? Or at least talk about something else.

    Something I learned rather quickly was that journalists and other media people don’t always do or say what we would like them to. They have their own agendas. Fine, but if they can help inform the public about the true intentions of a sinister, malicious and destructive cult in our midst, then I think that is a good thing.

    And what’s with this new found conciliatory attitude of yours? The Alanzo I knew and admired would never have advocated ‘no longer being at war’. He would have fought on until his last breath for whatever cause had got under his bonnet at that particular moment.

    You are clearly not the real Alanzo. And the fact that Marty Rathbun is now quoting you, proves this.

    I refuse to listen to anything you say. Ever.

    • What?

      Did someone say something on my blog?

      If so, I can’t hear it because my eyes are closed, my fingers are in my ears, and I am humming “God Save the Queen” very loudly inside my head!

      Alanzo 🙂

  14. I gotta thank you again Alanzo & thanks to Miss Tia & everyone else here. Its good to meet you all. I think I’ve finally found my peeps! 🙂 It made me really happy to read ya’ll’s advice & good thoughts about all of this & I wanted to let you know how much it means to me. I finally feel like I’m among friends.

    • Well I’m honored to be in a place with people that you consider to be your peeps Carmen. I agree that what you’ve done is very valuable to many people. You’ve deserved more positive recognition. I’m glad you are now getting it.

  15. I’m sorry that Ortega made that comment about you, Carmen. Ortega cares nothing about retaining even a shred of journalistic integrity. I’ve also been through the proverbial wringer with Ortega. He allowed Mark Bunker to post a completely fabricated story about me and then let his minions try to rip me to shreds. He never contacted me directly to find out my side of the story and of course has never apologized. He could care less. I don’t stroke his massive ego so the truth about me doesn’t matter.

    I have met Ortega face-to-face. He was extremely rude. I was not impressed and excused myself from the meeting very quickly after he told us that he was downtown with Mike Rinder like it was a big deal. He said that Rinder wouldn’t come across the street because he didn’t want to be photographed with anyone from “Anonymous.” I replied that I was glad he wasn’t coming across the street because I didn’t want to be photographed with HIM. Then I left.

    Hold your head up. You have integrity and the respect of people who value the truth. Ortega does not.

    • I am glad to hear that, G!

      And I’m sure Carmen is too!

      And congratulations on your new-born!

      You Norwegians seem to frikkin got it goin’ on!

      Can I come live there?

      Alanzo 🙂

        • I’m still working my way up to Godel’s Incompleteness Theorem.

          I tried to explain it to someone the other day and I realized I was sounding like a 4 year old explaining sex.

          I’ll get there. I know it will explain EVERYTHING once I finally have sex!


  16. I won’t comment on Tony being wrong, right, mean, nice, fallible or infallible. No point.

    What I will say is this: as has happened with just about every single dustup and mass fight or argument or feud amongst Scn critics- it starts with someone putting someone else on a pedestal. Then the fans of the person see the object of their admiration do things that show human nature rather than being some godlike boddhisattva type being. Person loses temper, says something others don’t like, or he makes a mistake or someone thinks he did. Then the people get upset. They thought they could rely on him. Now they can’t. Who knows what he could do next?

    Then they talk to others and et voila -a faction is created. I’ve seen this with Minton, Brooks, Greenway, Armstrong, Anonymous, Tommy Gorman, the uh “Buttersquashers”, David Love…

    It’s never ever a question of if it will happen again-it’s always a matter of when.

    To me, it’s a rerun. Even if I see the guy in the library with a candlestick and Col. Mustard lying dead on the floor or I see a heavenly light come down with a light proclaiming “this is my only begotten journalist” I’m not going to think of this as anything BUT a rerun which there’s no point in perpetuating because, trust me, another one will be along eventually. (They’re like buses)

    Meanwhile, there’s people being ripped off, imprisoned and even killed by CofS.

    • Yes. Understood.

      But I would think – in this instance – that an apology would be the easiest thing in the world.

      If a person had one non-asshole cell in his entire body – apologizing to Carmen Llywelyn for this insensitive remark would be a piece of cake.


      • Claire I think your comment here is very true. What we’ve witnessed over the last few decades of Scientology Ex and Critic-dom is just good ol’ fashioned human nature at both its finest and worst. I’ve certainly been guilty of some of its worst aspects myself. I hope I’ve learned from my own mistakes.

        This being human thing is tricky. Ain’t it? Lol…

          • Yes….and not to mention justifying bad deeds for the greater good across the greatest number of dynamics.

            • Hey man – operating on the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics means never having to say your sorry.

              Hey! Maybe that’s what Tony Ortega is doing!

  17. Alanzo, I remember you well from ESMB and several years ago you accused ESMB admins (& others) of being part of a vast conspiracy to help Marty Rathbun take over ESMB and other critic groups. What made you go from extreme paranoia and loathing of Marty to the president of his fan club and chief defender? 2009 Alanzo would accuse 2016 Alanzo of being a tool of Marty and doing the bidding of OSA.

    So if you have had a drastic change of heart on Marty and his motivations don’t you owe an apology to all the people you accused of being agents for Scientology and Marty’s puppets? I would think it would be the easiest thing in the world if “you had one non-asshole cell” in your entire body.

    Also, where is Zinjifar nowadays?

    • Hi Mirna –

      Welcome to Alanzo’s Blog.

      Both Marty and Karen have admitted to their “Indy OSA” antics at that time.

      Those were very different times. The landscape of the whole “battlefield” has completely changed, and a big reason it has completely changed is because Indy OSA has disbanded, and Marty and Karen both have begun criticizing Hubbard and the tech of Scientology itself. I believe that, since that time, Marty has himself accomplished more as a critic of Hubbard and the tech of Scientology than almost anyone else.

      I’ll tell you that the 2009 Alanzo would not be proud of the 2016 Alanzo if he did not change as the landscape changed, as well.

      That is my sincere answer to you, Mirna, about my own actions.

      I hope you take the time to consider it.


      • ” I’ll tell you that the 2009 Alanzo would not be proud of the 2016 Alanzo if he did not change as the landscape changed, as well.”

        You were such a role model to me in 2009 Alanzo. I am not proud of you now. I have sent many over to your blog. You were fair, wise and just. It hurts my heart to read you being so judgmental and critical now.

        Yes I am in the Bunker. I do not remember Carmen being written about so I can’t comment. I am an older woman (69) and I do not put anyone on a pedestal..nor do I worship anyone.

        I consider Tony O a friend in RL also. I have been around him I think 5 times. I do respect and like him.

        I do believe in living a Purpose Driven Life. I have made it my purpose to inform myself with the facts about this dangerous cult. I have read all critics books and of course watched every video made..every blog written. Tony’s Blog has assisted me with my learning..

        as well as Marty’s and Mike’s. In my own way I lend my voice against the abuses and disconnection.

        I just wanted to say that I am disappointed in you Alanzo. I know you probably don’t care..and want to tell me to go back to the Bunker.. I just feel like I lost someone I really liked and respected.

        Alanzo would have never said something like this to anyone..

        “AlanzoJune 7, 2016 12:39 pm

        Did someone say something on my blog?

        If so, I can’t hear it because my eyes are closed, my fingers are in my ears, and I am humming “God Save the Queen” very loudly inside my head!

        Alanzo “

          • Alanzo.. I am an excellent judge of character. I made a living doing it. I disagree with you.

            Tony is a journalist. He is not running for office. His job is not a popularity contest. Not everyone will agree with his posts. Not everyone will agree with his viewpoint.

            I have no conflict. Thank you for your response. Baby

            • Baby –

              Has there ever been a time when you disagreed with Tony Ortega?

              When was it, and what was it about?

              Do you believe that people, such as Alanzo, who occasionally disagree with Tony Ortega, and who say so publically, are “enemies” of Tony Ortega?

              I have been accused by Bunkerites of being “enemies” with Tony Ortega because I openly criticized him.

              You do get the irony there, right?

              Do you feel reticent and uneasy to publicly talk about disagreeing with Tony Ortega on AlanzosBlog?

              Here is a quote from an Ex-Scientologist named Sam Freeman giving her impressions on Miss Tia’s write up about being in the Bunker:

              “It reads like a cult victim story. Horrified is the word that springs to mind. Do people make cult leaders or do cult leaders make mindless followers? I don’t understand how this can happen to experienced ex cult members unless the ‘never-ins’ are getting drunk on koolaide for the first time. Seriously. WTF?”

              Do you think that’s possible?

              Do you think that it’s possible that a person who has never been in a cult might miss the cult dynamics all around them, and deny, deny deny that they have fallen into a cult mindset – even slightly?

              Over a year ago, I wrote a post giving the precise mathematical formula for the creation of sheeple. Do you think an Ex-Scientologist might be someone who might have the insight from life experience to spot cult behavior and to call it out?

              Or do you think that Ex-Scientologists are a particular brand of cult moron who are the only ones who could ever be so stupid as to wake up and find themselves exhibiting cult behavior?

              And finally, do you think that Tony Ortega should publicly apologize to Carmen Llywelyn? Why or why not?

              So many questions, Baby.

              As an Ex-Scientologist, it will be extremely interesting to see how – or if – you respond.


              • Sorry Baby –

                One more question for you.

                This is part of the discussion in the Bunker of Carmen Llywelyn while she was speaking out as an Ex-Scientologist, getting wide exposure for the abuse she experienced in Scientology.

                Carmen Llywelyn Trashed on Tony Ortega's Blog

                Do you believe that this kind of treatment by Tony and his Bunkerites of an Ex-Scientologist who is bravely speaking out – alone – in the media about her experiences in Scientology should be supported?

                Or should this treatment of Exes who are exposing Scientology in the media be criticized?

                Do you think Tony, or anyone at all, owes Carmen an apology?

                I do.

                How about you?


                • I have a great respect for Tony. I empathize with Carmen.

                  I have always said that I will fight to bring the cult down but I will not fight with each other. This is not my fight.

                  Alonzo.. Tony is exposing Scientology in the media.. you are criticizing him. I believe that you and Marty are using Carmen to further your own agenda.

                  It is not up to me to decide who owes who an apology.

                • I think Marty’s agenda is that he does not like his wife dragged through the mud by Tony Ortega and the Underground Bunker.

                  My agenda is that I did not go through Scientology all those years to find out how fraudulent and cruel they were, then to leave and start speaking up about them, to then be disconnected and fair gamed by them – only to be part of a group that is also cruel as well.

                  No group of humans is exempt from cruelty, and it is when you get a high degree of agreement, and too few individuals think to question what everyone is agreeing on, that you get cruelty because the fight is so RIGHT.

                  What was done to Cathy Tweed, Monique Rathbun and Carmen Llywelyn by Tony Ortega and the Underground Bunker was cruel.

                  I’m going to speak up about that every time it happens.

                  That’s my agenda.

                  And I don’t care who bans me, or who declares and fair games me, or who thinks I’m OSA because of it.


                • Alanzo I have no answers. I apologize for saying that you have an agenda. That was unfair of me.

                  I guess my saying that was in response to you and Marty being on the same page when in the past you were always sparring with each other .

                  I’ve never been good with speculations.. So I’ll stop now.

                  Maybe our paths will cross again someday. Nice gabbing with you. Sincerely Baby

              • Baby –

                “Has there ever been a time when you disagreed with Tony Ortega?

                When was it, and what was it about”

                Alonzo.. Tony writes his post and the Bunker discus it. He does not come on that often other than to update us on a story or answer a question. So out of 1,000 comments he may come in maybe one time..if that.

                One day I really got upset with Tony..Marty’s story was on Investigative Discovery and Tony was acting dismissive about it. Tony cleared it up later that it wasn’t Marty’s story that bothered him it was the way that ” Dangerous Persuasions ” depicted it.

                Baby Tony Ortega • a year ago

                ” OK.. Tony for years we’ve been sqwaking about the public not knowing what the hell is going on in Scientology..

                We have been fighting.. hard for it.. Now programming like ID is picking up the stories..

                This is the 3rd one… and I just want to say.. I’m really disappointed in your response. People will be talking about this tomorrow..and then they will see Going Clear..and hopefully get themselves educated..

                This shit is old shit to us.. but I can only imagine how many woke up about the abuse going on inside this church tonight..

                You just let the air out of my balloon..”

                Baby Tony Ortega • a year ago ( Another of my comments)

                ” I am just saying. Any mention of Scientology if it involves the facts is better than we had what 2-3 years ago..

                OK.. so they got some facts wrong.. 8 instead of 10 blah, blah.. Really? This is just an introduction course..

                a smattering of incidents that happened/ happens in Scientology.. Escape from a religion?
                Abuse in a religion.. ?

                It’s NOT whether I liked the program or is the fact that any program.. any numbers that attempt to dramatize what is going in there..

                Should be promoted and at least given some kudo’s for their attempt.

                May prompt that IRS investigation.. May prompt others to speak out.. to join us when googling critics of Scn. .. may be interested in the subject to buy your book.. Marc and Claire’s book.

                I personally thought that you were dismissive .. but it doesn’t matter. really no big deal. I am just telling you how I feel.

                So Marty is a much more sinister and complex person that was shown on the screen..
                For those interested they will dig deeper..

                But for some.. What they have seen tonight may be enough to say.. ” WTF is going inside that Church..”

                Q. Do you believe that people, such as Alanzo, who occasionally disagree with Tony Ortega, and who say so publically, are “enemies” of Tony Ortega?

                Absolutely not.

                Q. Do you feel reticent and uneasy to publicly talk about disagreeing with Tony Ortega on AlanzosBlog? Absolutely not.

                I will submit this and answer the other questions after dinner. Baby

                • Alonzo commented to Baby:

                  Here is a quote from an Ex-Scientologist named Sam Freeman giving her impressions on Miss Tia’s write up about being in the Bunker:

                  “It reads like a cult victim story. Horrified is the word that springs to mind. Do people make cult leaders or do cult leaders make mindless followers? I don’t understand how this can happen to experienced ex cult members unless the ‘never-ins’ are getting drunk on koolaide for the first time. Seriously. WTF

                  Do you think that’s possible?”

                  I personally did not like cult terms being thrown around with comparison to Tony’s blog. We all should know by now the characteristics of a cult.

                  Steve Hassan says it best..

                  Had I read the write up by Miss Tia about being in the Bunker as Sam did I would also come to the same conclusion as Sam.

                  My experience in the Bunker is not the same as Miss Tia’s. I do not want to disrespect Tia. I have posted beside her for years. I will just say that my experience does not match hers.

                  Do I think that the ‘ never-ins’ are getting drunk on koolaide for the first time? NO

                  Do I think it is possible? I have not observed it to be so. I used to participate on an Artist Forum. The gentleman who hosted the forum gave valuable information and I really cared for the members of the forum.

                  The only difference between the Artist forum and the Underground Bunker is the Topic. I take some information and leave some. The Bunker is just a nook in the
                  ” Rabbit Hole” that I have gone down.

                  Reading a blog and comments can be an addicting behavior just as facebook, cell phones.. the computer. For every person that comes to the Bunker they have their own reasons.

                  Tony has many lurkers who come to read his posts only with their morning coffee before they head off to work.

                  Some peek in from time to time to comment and leave.. Some stay longer and participate in the comments.

                  There is just a small fraction of us that one would consider regulars. I met so many at Howdycon. All walks of life just participating in discussion and fun. Very little was discussed about Scientology.

                  We have gotten to know each other over the years and discussed Real Life, families and work.

                  We did have our Saturday dinner with a short agenda.. and we met for drinks and Tony was just a regular guy among us. He did everything to make us feel comfortable with each other.

                  Alonzo asked:

                  Do you think that it’s possible that a person who has never been in a cult might miss the cult dynamics all around them, and deny, deny deny that they have fallen into a cult mindset – even slightly?

                  Absolutely.. Without question I know what a slow process it is.. Like walking into a fog not knowing you are in a fog until you are half way through.

                  Working in Mental Health I worked closely with those who were decompressing from cults. I worked with Satanists, Moonies and members of a Christian Fundamentalist Church.

                  I will continue tomorrow Alonzo.

              • Alonzo comments:

                “Over a year ago, I wrote a post giving the precise mathematical formula for the creation of sheeple. Do you think an Ex-Scientologist might be someone who might have the insight from life experience to spot cult behavior and to call it out?

                Or do you think that Ex-Scientologists are a particular brand of cult moron who are
                the only ones who could ever be so stupid as to wake up and find themselves
                exhibiting cult behavior?

                I will answer the first question. It depends on the person. There are many variables.

                Alonzo. I am offended by your second question. I have never referred to an Ex-Scientologist as either a moron or stupid.

                Not only that but your question does not make sense.

                I also do not agree with your mathematical formula for your creation of sheeple.

                The Bunker does not have one voice. It serves many purposes. We are NOT yes men to Tony or For Tony.

                If it appears that we have group think it is because many of the issues would have us agree. For instance Disconnection. Who wouldn’t agree as a critic that disconnection is wrong?

                Who wouldn’t agree that Narconon facilities should be shut down? That the number of Scientologists have dwindled? I mean who would argue with Posts like that?

                One thing that Tony is against is Tabloid Gossip. He is old school confirm the sources. He sits on stories.

                I do know that I am not selling Tony or the Bunker to you. I have over 27,660 comments on the Underground Bunker. I have done my homework.

                I studied Dianetics in the early 70s as coursework for Anatomy and Kinesiology (Science of the Mind). Ugh.

                My friend (since 1976 ) sister has been a Scn. since 1974 .. I have witnessed first hand the pain that is associated with a loved one trapped in Scientology.

                No one tells me what to think, do or say. My husband will confirm this. Thank you for reading.

                I am just a poster. A member of the Bunker. I do have social courage as you speak about. Have a great day Baby.

        • I don’t know if you went to Howdy Con Baby, but if you did, did you all stand up and applaud that big picture of your cult leader Tony O with a round of “Hip Hip Hoorays”?

          Yes I saw the pics of the event. Don’t deny that there was a large picture of Tony O on the wall. I immediately thought of LRH pictures on the wall in Scientology walls. Pathetic. Makes me wanna puke.

          • Lone Star.. Yes I did go to Howdy Con. No I did not stand up and applaud. I was not in the room at the time.

            Lone Star..That was done as a joke because of the remarks made by Marty and others about the Bunker being a cult.

            No one was serious. Tony informed everyone NOT to do it as it was happening .. It was just J & Ding and trying to emulate David Miscavige events.

            Please don’t tell me that you took it seriously. It was Pure snark. We had one person on the Bunker that made the poster. We all got a big laugh out of it. I wore a Xenu necklace does not mean I believe in Xenu.

            If I thought for one second that people were applauding and Hip Hip Hooraying Tony on purpose I would have puked myself. There was not one person in that group that took it seriously.

            Lone Star we are critics. Yes many of us are Never Ins. We found a Cause to get behind and go to the Bunker to support the cause. Tony is an excellent journalist who has reported on Scientology when others were scared to do it.

            Out of the Hundreds of thousands of words he has written offended anyone? I’m sure it has.
            We are good people. We come from all walks of life.

            We discuss serious issues and we also have fun. We have argued with Tony at times as well as each other.

            It is absolutely ludicrous to refer to the Bunker as a cult. I have posted more than anyone over the years I’m sure. I personally have done it because it has helped me work through the grief of losing my identical twin sister at the age of 58.

            Thank you for asking that question. If you have any more questions that you would like to ask me it would be my pleasure to answer them for you. Sincerely Baby

            • Sorry so late in replying Baby. I just found out that you did. Fair enough. Applauding pictures of Tony as a joke is pretty damn funny. Thanks for letting me know.

              • Thank you Lone Star.. It was a big joke.. but Tony didn’t appreciate it. ( ha) I don’t know how I missed it. I would have been right there with them.

                I’m glad that we cleared that up.. Ugh.. it would have been so creepy if we meant it..

                Happy 4th.. Baby

        • By the way, Baby.

          As for my comment to Stephen Jones above, I consider that Stephen Jones is a friend of mine, and I do believe that, as an Englishman, he was “taking the piss”.

          So I “took the piss” right back.

          As an American, I hope that I did it right because no American could survive the withering criticism of an Englishman.


  18. Well it was bound to happen sooner or later. Actually it took a little longer than I thought. What? The inference that OSA is behind this “attack” on Tony Ortega. Lol….

    Someone is making this inference on ESMB. I’m sure it’s been made on The Bunker too, but I don’t have the time or the patience to look for it.

    So Alanzo….has your check from OSA cleared yet? Lol….

    (They pay me with free auditing….BWAHAHAHAHAH…. Actually someone will probably think I’m not kidding).

      • I don’t know if she thinks Marty is OSA. If so it would be quite an about face in a short period of time because just a month ago or less she posted on Marty’s blog that she still considers him to be her friend when he was getting all the slander and vitriol for ending the lawsuit.

        In fact her post was what helped me to change my mind about that particular situation. Then I apologized to Marty for being so rough on him about the lawsuit handling.

        I really like Karen and will continue to like and respect her. I just wish she wasn’t the first to say “OSA!”

        • I have a bunch of respect for Karen too. She and Jeffrey Augustine are sheer forces of nature against the cult.

          But sometimes a cigar is just a cigar: Tony needs to clean up his act and apologize for his mistakes in treating Exes disrespectfully in public.

          I’m sure OSA loved Tony Ortega’s denigration and dead agenting of Carmen Llywelyn while she was out there giving the Church hell in the media. Why did no one cry OSAOSAOSA! then?

          That’s the handling here: Tony Ortega mans up and apologizes.

          That’s all that has to happen, in my opinion.

          Why is an apology such a horrendous thing?


          • Well I think Tony O will apologize to Carmen whenever Donald Trump apologizes for calling that Indiana born Judge a “Mexican”.

      • She does say that, contrary to what you said in here, that she never admitted to any ‘Indy Osa’ behaviour, because there was none to admit to.

        • You bet.

          The first rule of Indy OSA is that there is no Indy OSA. Especially now that she knows I know she admitted to it.

          If Karen wants to talk to me, she comes here herself to talk to me.

          No surrogates. And no flying monkeys.

  19. A consistent trait that is readily apparent to me among the exes and critics who post on the various boards and blogs is the tendency to not get up to speed on a given subject or topic before launching into an all out critical post. And of course hurling ad homs at the person or persons at the center of said subject or topic. Especially if they’ve already made up their mind about certain persons.

    Alanzo how many times have you had to ask people to go and read past posts and get up to speed? Quite a few. Bob Eckert even confused Cathy Tweed with Cathy True! Not even close! Yet he was so adamant like he knew what the hell he was talking about, yet didn’t have an effing clue.

    I just noticed on ESMB the rumblings are starting to pick up and will probably turn into a full roar as this evening wears on. (You will see a classic example of group think at its finest….aka piling on).

    So far it is clear that those who are posting about these issues with Miss Tia, Cathy Tweed, and Carmen Llewelyn have not actually read what it’s all about yet, but feel compelled to weigh in with total certainty that you and Marty are “full of shit”. (Paraphrasing). They obviously glance over the headlines, maybe read a line hear or there and pontificate, “Oh this is just Marty being Marty again….and Alanzo well…pffffft….what’s his fucking problem? I thought he was on our side?”

    That’s why I’m not involved with ESMB or The Bunker anymore. I was myself guilty far too often myself of piling on with little to no real information. At times I was the brunt of this and didn’t like it. Yet I did it to others as well. (Yep I have been a hypocrite). The only way I’ve found to stop it is just not be a part of a group that continues to do it with regularity and passion. We exes and critics are often so damn lazy in not taking even a little bit of time to do some actual reading and contemplating before going off and making proclamations of absolute certainty and sometimes condemnation.

    If anyone from ESMB lurks here I’ll just say get your mind off of Marty and Alanzo and read up on the Carmen Llewelyn story. Read what SHE said. Read what Miss Tia said regarding her particular story. Then make up your own mind about whether they have a genuine beef or not.

    • You’re right. It is harder to read up and look at all the information and all its complexity.

      In order to understand the Carmen Llywelyn situation alone, you would need to read her “Why I left Scientology” article from last summer, her National Enquirer article, and the RADAR online pieces. That will take you an hour or so. Then, you have to read what Tony said about her, and what she said in return. Then you have to think about it a bit before you spout off.

      It’s much easier to simply flip the valve on your colostomy bag and blast out whatever’s in there at the time.

      I know what you are saying about being on online fora – I’ve done it too. It’s so easy to fall into that trap.

      Excuse me, I need to go empty my colostomy bag….

      • I read the article “Why I left Scientology” and I think it is great and spot on.

        I guess Tony O didn’t think it was juicy enough, but I thought it was great for helping people in the scientology mindset.

        Sometimes we make mistakes, oh well, didn’t get that headline. LOL

        Sometimes things are not read that we post, to get others to read, and they do not read it. Oh well. What to do? LOL

        Anyways, there is hidden in the Heinlein letters between Hubbard and Heinlein that one can get for a small fee of a few bucks. Tony O did post a write -up about it and he read the letters and posted only juicy stuff from his understanding.

        In reading the letters between Heinlein and Hubbard, actual pdf copies of the actual letters, why in one of the letters, Hubbard tells Heinlein of a few books he read, which was totally missed by Tony O and the significance of those books.

        One will have to read those books to understand and connect dots. In that particular letter, Hubbard exposes what influenced him in dianetics and scientology.

        What a brain spleege.

        And what is it, it’s called “the crowd”, and if one thinks, it”s also may be called groupthink in todays world, or the reactive mind, common to all people as Hubbard said, LOL.

        Will you read the books, since it is source from Hubbard?

        I’ll give you actual reference to it.

        Here are the books:

  20. It’s either funny or sad how otherwise intelligent people can’t seem to get over that in 2009 you, Alanzo, were a very strong critic of Marty Rathbun and now you are not.

    I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer but I can do the math. That was seven years ago. Were the things that Marty were posting about regularly then the same as he is now? Wasn’t he still in essence a practicing Scientologist, albeit not in the cult? Hell, even by 2010 and 11 he was changing quite a bit.

    I’m very disappointed in the sophistry that Karen is engaging in tonight on ESMB. She’s calling you a flip flopper as well as inferring OSA involvement. What a convenient, yet thoughtless charge to make. The situation on the ground is different now in 2016 than it was in 2009. You’ve already explained this to someone earlier who at least respectfully asked you why you have “changed”:

    “…….Both Marty and Karen have admitted to their “Indy OSA” antics at that time.

    Those were very different times. The landscape of the whole “battlefield” has completely changed, and a big reason it has completely changed is because Indy OSA has disbanded, and Marty and Karen both have begun criticizing Hubbard and the tech of Scientology itself. I believe that, since that time, Marty has himself accomplished more as a critic of Hubbard and the tech of Scientology than almost anyone else.

    I’ll tell you that the 2009 Alanzo would not be proud of the 2016 Alanzo if he did not change as the landscape changed, as well…….”

    One could say that Karen has been a flip flopper regarding Marty herself. Wasn’t she a stout supporter of Marty in 2009? And did she not just infer tonight that he is being either duped or used by OSA? That’s quite a shift. Of course she may counter that it was you that she was inferring to be of OSA, but the context was both you AND Marty from what I could ascertain.

    Oh well….Like I said it’s just getting started over there. I don’t think I can or will watch it anymore. Too depressing.

    Oh ef me! What am I thinking? We should just all go along to get along and keep fighting Scientology by not being much better than it ourselves. Yeah…that’s the ticket. Fight the cult with our own culty mindsets and practices.

    (At times these forums and blogs remind me of the novel “Lord of the Flies”).

  21. Well I took a look at the discussion thread on ESMB just now this morning. In some respects it didn’t denigrate as much as I thought it might. But it’s still pretty typical, meaning not good. Mainly because the bulk of the back and forth discussion is regarding personalities rather than the meat of the issues. The focus is on the “rascals” Alanzo and Marty. I don’t think there is one post that considers the merits of Carmen’s case. Actually I take that back, last night Ethercat did make a post supporting anyone who feels the need to air a grievance. Communicator IC was also pretty “fair and balanced”. But most of the rest of the posts are just the usual pap. Focus on attacking the persons rather than tackling the issues at hand. Hmmmmmm…..where have I seen that done before?

    Tetloj, aka Ella, even played the good ol’ Butthurt Card. Yeah. There ya go. That’s real grown up behavior right there. Instead of debating or expressing a viewpoint about the issues, just say that the person or persons you disagree with are “Butthurt”.

    What is sad is the fact that in all this “intelligent discussion” the story of Carmen Llewelyn is still under the radar. I think the view of most exes and critics who pontificate on these forums and blogs still believe that if Tony O dismissed her then she must have deserved to be dismissed.

    It’s too bad because Carmen’s story and her recounting of it is quite powerful. Those who have read it have been moved.

    But yeah…..Marty is a wannabe Buddha….Alanzo is a perpetual shit stirrer….and Miss Tia is a crybaby….and all are butthurt. (And may be OSAOSAOSA) Discuss!

  22. Not evaluating or invalidating, the first two rules of the Auditors Code are useful and also King’s English. Of course that doesn’t say never be critical – laughter

  23. Thanks for addressing the issues regarding Carmen’s story Alonzo- I was also relieved to read what MIss Tia had to say. I have been deeply disappointed in the way some in the ‘critic’ community behave. Being a mere WOG- to use that ridiculous scientology term-my only real experience of scientology was being in a relationship with a scientologist for many years.My main concerns during that time were with the kind of contempt I was treated with for not wanting to join- and being belittled as a lesser being for making that decision. It made me look into what scientology was really about – and I didn’t like what I discovered. Because of that experience, I am quick to recognise similar behaviour and I have witnessed it in the critic community- a kind of arrogance and elitism which I find distasteful. I often hear others saying that we should not criticise other critics. Being an anti-scientology critic does not give you untouchable guru status- that is the same kind of adulation that got Hubbard his worshippers. The personal stories of the suffering of individuals who have been damaged by this organisation need to be made public- it should not be about gaining celebrity status.

    • Yes, the idea that one mustn’t criticize other critics is fronted, usually while criticizing the critic who is criticizing another critic.

      All kinds of personal character assassinations will be leveled at a critic who criticizes another critic – because of course, critics should not criticize another critic.

      The blind hypocrisy is astounding sometimes.

      Tony Ortega has a history of treating good people with disrespect who are putting themselves on the line against OSA, risking fair game and exposing the cult – such as Monique Rathbun and Carmen Llywelyn.

      He got called out on it.

      End of story.

      Thanks for your post, Hayley.


  24. Ol’ Bunny Skull, who was always one of my least favorite posters at ESMB, has proven that she truly belongs in The Bunker as she is commenting on the “mental health” of Carmen….

    “…..It sounds like Carmen would do much better with professional psychological counseling rather than trying to take on a destructive media fight against the cult. She obviously wants attention and to be listened to, but she is only causing harm to herself with these antics.”

    After yet another pontificating post in which she pretty much says she has Carmen all figured out and pronouncing the issue settled by saying, “The End”….Communicator IC basically puts her in her place and sums up the situation quite nicely….

    Seriously Bunny Skull, is a real piece of work. She’s always had a tendency to psychoanalyze people and pronounce judgements from her self-important high perch.

    One word describes her catty flakiness….Rowrrrr!!

    • This morning my first thought was to ask Alanzo to delete my post above. But I think I’ll just comment on it instead. On this the morning after, I regret getting too snarky and sarcastic toward Bunny Skull personally. I could’ve critiqued and disagreed with her posts without that stuff. Old bad habits die hard. It would’ve been better to just post a part of her comments, linked to CIC’s response and left it at that.

      Make no mistake about it, for four plus years I was one of the worst on ESMB in terms of personal attacks, vitriol, and overall bad behavior. At times I took the lead in “going after” people.

      I just wanted to reiterate this so that no one will think that I place myself above anyone else on any forum or blog. I’ve done a lot of introspection during the past few months and I don’t like what I observed.

      I hope that many others will do a little introspection and then maybe all these message boards and blogs will become better places. But knowing human nature that probably won’t happen. I also know that I’ll never become perfect. I will struggle for the rest of my life with my habit and tendency to use snark, sarcasm, and even venom in opposing someone with whom I disagree.

      I hope this made some sense.

    • Bunnyskull tends to be rather cutting but in many respects is quite bright. I enjoy some of her posts. When she’s mellow, she’s fun to read.

  25. Alanzo, I am a long time never-in Scientology observer. I have followed Mark Bunker, Rathbun. Rinder, Ortega and anything else I can find on the subject. I live in the South so there are no Scions here. (I doubt there are any even In Atlanta). I have compassion for anyone who has gone through the trauma of Scientology. I can not pretend to understand the damage it causes people.
    I do have a question. It is a question, not an insult. With some of the schisms that have occurred between different former members, I wonder why you still use Scion jargon when disagreeing with each other. I see “black PR”, “fair game” etc being thrown out a lot. I believe Miss Tia is a never-in like me and even she uses Scion terms.
    I was briefly in a high control group in college, and like most cults they used their own cult-speak. I found part of my healing was to throw out any language specific to the group. It helped me to get away from that mindset. How is it useful to throw out the very words that were used to control a whole group of people in critiquing each other?
    I appreciate your insight. BTW I personally don’t have a dog in this fight.

    • Hi Ann – welcome.

      Personally, I try not to use terms, but they slip in every once in a while. I’ve even written a blog post about not using Scientology lingo here on my blog for the exact same reason you got away from it!

      But it slips back in. It’s a social thing. I know that my audience is primarily people who have been in Scientology, and I get casual, sometimes too casual.

      But here’s another thing that is happening to me recently as I continue to evolve after the cult: It’s not so dangerous any more. Scientology, if they took over the world, would be extremely dangerous. I personally have done what I could to discredit them over the last 16 years in an attempt to see that doesn’t happen.

      And for those still stuck in it, is dangerous for them, no doubt.

      But as the realization of Scientology’s lowering danger rises in me, I am more and more feeling like it’s okay to entertain a Scientology thought or skill every once in a while.

      Like “Keep your TRs in, Al“.

      That means, “stay focused on the events happening in front of you, do not react impulsively to them and get flustered, calmly hold your position, and remember your goal. Continue to focus on and handle the events in front of you – no matter what happens – so everything turns out all right.

      Training in the TRs in Scientology actually helped me to get better at that, and its a very valuable skill.

      Instead of saying all that above, it’s easier just to say to myself, “Keep your TRs in, Al” to remind myself to call up that skill set and keep it handy.

      Yes, it’s Scientology jargon. Yes, it was used to control me and others at times. Yes, there are actually hypnotic triggers that are embedded in that phrase. But in the grand scheme of things, with the way my life is configured right now, there is absolutely no danger in my thinking “Keep your TRs in, Al“, and much to be gained by it.

      So I’m going to go ahead and think it, and I might even say it to others.

      I realize that what I am saying is highly blasphemous to cult-watching. And you’re talking to one of the best little cult watchers ever.

      But I’m seeing that, for me, it’s time to be moving on beyond that now.

      Scientology is no longer dangerous to me. And Scientology is moving into a state where it is no longer dangerous to almost every one else on the planet, too.

      So I don’t worry about it any more.


  26. I will quickly comment and go back to my regularly scheduled lurking….

    Carmen, I applaud your strength and bravery. Stay strong and know that many are sending good thoughts and vibes your way.

    I stopped commenting a long while ago on ESMB, the Bunker and most all other blogs. I think all have explained better than I could on why. I’m happy to see Miss Tia!!

    Alonzo …. you rock!

  27. Man o’ man….no doubt about it…ESMB’s Bunny Skull is like a trophy girl for all that is mean, nasty, bitter, condemning, unfeeling, without empathy…..

    First is the tail end of a very balanced and thoughtful post by CommunicatorIC followed by Bunny Skull’s bitter, nasty invective:

    Quote Originally Posted by CommunicatorIC View Post

    “…….Finally, while I have absolutely no inside, secret or back-door knowledge, I suspect that Carmen’s stress and, yes, anger, may have been increased by the fact that when she first complained about Tony’s statement and comments made about her on the Bunker, none of he fellow Exes or critics (including me) gave a shit.”

    Bunny Skull..

    “That’s right, no one gave a shit or noticed, because it was an offhanded comment on his own damn blog and NOT a big deal. But Carmen has surely rectified that situation by taking a little noted comment and endlessly bitching, writing letters, writing posts, making legal threats and generally screaming about it at the top of her lungs online for years now. If Carmen truly thought that comment harmed her then she only has herself to thank for ensuring a little noticed comment read by at most a few hundred people which would have sunk to the abyss of a disqus comment stream has now been permanently tied to her name and promoted, google indexed, discussed, reblogged and repeated endlessly online thanks to her efforts and tantrums.

    Maybe she should send the comment to @the read Donald Trump and @cnn so they can retweet it to millions of followers and then victory will be hers and the majority of the western world will be aware of the comment mean old Tony’s made about her.

    Christ on a jet ski. ”


    It’s just so clear that BS never got it. She just glosses over how Tony’s “little noticed comment” led to a lot of bashing by his culty Bunkaroos. Or she’s not glossing over it and just truly has some kind of weird bitterness and strong dislike for Carmen. Very catty. And I’m not being snarky or sarcastic this time. I’m being observational.

    To use the Lord of the Flies analogy…..Tony Ortega has the conch. His loyal followers take his clues and respond accordingly….as well as vie for his attention. They are not above being nasty to one another to get it at times.

    It’s actually becoming more laughable to me. These are grown ass adults in their 50s, 60s and 70s acting like 12 year olds.


    • What I love about ESMB is how every one has to weigh in on things that they themselves admit they know nothing about.

      Whether or not they’ve read anything elsewhere, had any experience with the subject matter at all, or even read all the posts in the thread, each ESMBer has to weigh in with their often times clueless thoughts – some even admitting they don’t know anything about the situation.

      But still, just because the thread is there and it’s getting a lot of views, each one has to weigh in.

      It’s like they all think they’re pundits on every aspect of Scientology – just because they have an account on ESMB.

      I do have to say though, Ethercat is a fantastic board manager. She has really improved things over there in terms of moderating personal attacks and character assassinations.

      Ethercat has definitely made things better for Ex-Scientologists on ESMB.

      • Just earlier when I said that “these are grown ass adults acting like 12 year olds” I meant only a smallish handful. Certainly not the majority of posters are like that at all.

        Yes I agree totally about Ethercat. I really respect and admire her. She’s of course very smart and has a real genuine goal to be fair and evenhanded. She wants everyone else to be fair and respectful with one another as well. She’s committed to creating a sane environment on the Board where everyone can feel welcome and safe to join in. I have helped her by leaving it. Lol…

        I don’t think she gets enough credit for all the work she’s done in exposing the abuses of Narconon. It has been her passionate pet project for years. But I’m sure administering ESMB has taken much of her time now.

        Some may read this and think I’m sucking up, but I’ve never been shy about giving someone praise when praise is due.

        EC is good people!

          • Thanks, you two, for the compliments. It means a lot to hear them. 🙂

            Also, since my various posts are being discussed, I just want to make it clear that although my name is Ann and I am in the South US, the “Ann” that posted a comment here earlier is not me – not that there’s anything wrong with what that Ann posted. 🙂

            • Hey EC! You are taking a pretty bold step by posting here. You may have to do an FPRD. A Sec Check for sure. Lol…

              Thanks for stopping in and giving a shout. You are more than welcome for the compliments.

              (For your OSA pay off…are one hundred dollar bills alright? Can’t do an electronic transfer. Sorry. The psychs control the electronic banking systems now.)

        • What I am talking about is the amount of thinking – after the amount of work to educate one’s self about the topic of the thread on ESMB.

          Obviously that’s not considered important before one weighs in on ESMB.

          Having an account is all you need.

          • Yes, I agree that weighing in is not useful when commenting on a serious topic or subject.
            I was also looking at applying the concept of weighing in to “thinking up something to say” in general. Am I being sociable, looking for attention, not wanting to feel left out, etc, etc. Weighing in is an interesting concept.

  28. Just wanted to say, that whenever someone posted a link to a new Carmen story, I frankly didn’t give a crap on whether Tony liked her or not. I thought that Carmen had a lot to say that I was interested in. Her experience is unique, and I found no reason why I should take Tony’s judgment over mine. However I never felt the need to voice that in the bunker. I have noticed a few people who would post links to her articles , and their post would be upvoted. I hope that Carmen doesn’t feel like the bunker is a brick wall of hate for her. That would make me really sad. I applaud what you are doing, and just because one journalist makes a judgment on you doesn’t make him right, and just because I’m in the bunker doesn’t mean I agree with anything and everything he says. I can get how you would feel the way you feel though. I’m sorry if I had any part in that.
    <3 beauty

  29. sorry its taken me so long to find your message board alanzo i do remember your posts in the bunker. and i admit to agreeing with everything you have posted.. those arguing against you are only trying to hide their own fair gaming. unlike the real world you’re never supposed to take one persons opinion think for yourself. search around read different sites. different articles. DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS.. one of the people i most admired in the bunker had the audacity to try to belittle me when i got offended at a racist post… please dont take this the wrong anyone.. but there was a meme put up of a white man who looked 13 months pregnant and a black woman who looked about 9 months pregnant and the comment was made that had the baby daddy known what she would look like 9 months down the line he might have rethought it.. i replied really ? well im damn sure that had the mans man known that once her child bearing days were over and done and he would take over giving birth. she would have re thought it.. of course the person immediately began yelling about how i dont know her and her comment was racist. which i called mountain oysters on. because if it wasnt she would have replied about both not just the black woman. boy oh boy did the claws come out.. but my claws are naturally long and strong.. and i mean that figuratively. that particular person has just tried to come at you on this board…. please dont allow their show of calm fool anyone. ive seen them in action. and they are among the top ten of sheeple

  30. “He has repeatedly shown his contempt and disrespect for anyone who would get themselves involved in Scientology, or in any other spiritual activity.”

    I so disagree with this. I’ve seen interview after interview of Tony and he has absolute understanding of why people get drawn into scientology. I’ve never heard him show scorn or disrespect for scientologists, in or out; or that matter, of the independents.

    • Freddie wrote:

      I’ve never heard him show scorn or disrespect for scientologists, in or out; or that matter, of the independents.”

      Did you read the post that you are commenting on?

      Or this one?

      Or this one?

      Or this one?

      There is a very specific pattern here which I am criticing about Tony Ortega. And in the last few weeks, he has started to clean up his act.

      These are all very welcome things.


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