Are All Ex-Scientologists Crazy? Chris Shelton Seems to Think So!

chris shelton scientologyThere are a certain set of assumptions that get repeated about the mental health of Scientologists and Ex-Scientologists. I didn’t actually hear these assumptions very often until Anonymous rose up in late 2007/early 2008, but they’ve been repeated over and over on their websites, and by lots of Exes on the Internet since then.

The line is: Anyone who was ever involved in Scientology is damaged and crazy.

Along with the brutal and war-like moral values that Anonymous brought to the Post-Scientology Internet (“Never Forgive, Never Forget, Expect Us”, etc.) Anonymous did more to promote this idea that Ex-Scientologists were “damaged” and “crazy” than any other group.

Besides, of course, the Church of Scientology – who are constantly seeking to discredit the people telling their stories of Scientology abuse.

When you see recent escapees from the Church of Scientology, such as Chris Shelton, denigrating their fellow Ex-Scientologists by forwarding this idea as part of an explanation for a completely unrelated topic, then you know that the Church’s campaign to discredit Ex-Scientologists as damaged and crazy has been very effective.

Here’s Chris Shelton answering a question about the Marty Rathbun legal case, and inserting his assumption into this topic:

“You know there’s a lot of Scientology survivors out there. People got into Scientology for all different kinds of reasons. They come out of Scientology for all different kinds of reasons. And people go to Scientology in all kinds of different mental states, they come out of Scientology in all different kinds of mental states – generally worse than when they came in to one degree or another.’

“And don’t misconstrue anything I’m saying as you know I’m calling anybody crazy or any kind of extreme nonsense …because it’s not… just … [Look at] the words that are coming out of my mouth. ok? There is no labeling going on here. I’m simply making observations about the fact that Scientology screws people up and sometimes people were a bit screwed up you know before they got in and they got more screwed up coming out. And sometimes people were all right when they got in and they’re screwed up when they get out.’

“You know there’s a recovery process we talk about and we call it recovery for a reason. Because that’s what it is, you know? You have people especially Ex-Sea Org members suffer from various shades of depression, PTSD, other mental and psychological issues.’

“You know it’s just there’s trauma connected with it and it’s so easy on the part of many people, not just Scientologists, to say there’s no such thing as mental trauma or mental illness or PTSD and things like this and they just fluff it off. And I really don’t know where they get off doing that because it’s very real. As somebody who’s lived it I can tell you that it is very real.”

See Chris’ full video here.

Chris’ generalized assertion above that ex-Scientologists are mentally damaged was fully 1/3rd of his answer to someone asking about Monique Rathbun’s legal case, and Marty Rathbun’s disagreement with the way that Tony Ortega wrote about it.

His assertion that Ex-Scientologists are damaged mentally from Scientology was completely unrelated to the question asked.

Chris takes great pains to emphasize that he isn’t labeling any one individual Ex-Scientologist as crazy (Especially not Mark Rathbun – oh my god no). But he asserts over and over that the mental damage from Scientology is “real”. And you’ll notice that there is no scenario he provides where someone who comes out of Scientology is better off mentally than they went in. All of his scenarios end with a Scientologist coming out of Scientology more damaged and crazy than they were when they went in.

My point is not that there is no damage that can come from having been involved with Scientology. My point is that these assumptions must be examined critically before making these generalizations about Ex-Scientologists – and especially before adopting these assumptions for yourself as an Ex.

When you do critically examine Chris Shelton’s assumptions for the mental states of all Ex-Scientologists, they tend to fall apart for most people who were involved in Scientology.

The “Recovery” Paradigm Doesn’t Cut It For Everyone

The paradigms we use to frame our experiences can limit our understanding of those experiences.

Chris is using a “recovery” paradigm to explain a person’s life after Scientology, and his use of it seems particularly sloppy to me.

I do understand it, though.

This “Recovery” paradigm was a whole mental package that I’d adopted for my life after Scientology while hanging out with Exes on the Ex-Scientologist Message Board, and Tony Ortega’s Underground Bunker. The longer I had been away from other Exes on the Internet, though, particularly on places like those, the more I began to question this paradigm for viewing myself and my life after Scientology.

There was even a time when I used the tag line “Recovery From Scientology” for this blog. I had been convinced that Scientology was something that I needed to “recover from” while I was a poster on ESMB. I still have a category of blog posts called “Recovery” From Scientology. I’m probably going to change that some day.

The overwhelming majority of people who were involved in Scientology simply walk away from it and never look back. They don’t post about it on the Internet or see themselves as “recovering from Scientology”. The overwhelming majority of Scientologists never got involved in Scientology deeply enough, or identified with it strongly enough, to have to “recover” from anything.

So right there, Chris’ generalization about the damage that Scientology does to Exes reaches too far. Having once been involved in Scientology does NOT mean that you were damaged by it. In fact, I am pretty sure that there are a great many people, if allowed, who would say that the time they spent in Scientology helped them overall.

They have nothing to “recover from”.

The Scientology Experience Should Not Be Defined Solely by Former Sea Org Members

Because of the paramilitary brainwashing techniques that Hubbard built into Scientology (such as OW write ups and Sec Checks and the Truth Rundown), Sea Org members had very different experiences in Scientology than anyone else.

Sea Org members make up a minority of people who got themselves involved in Scientology, and their experiences are particularly fanatical and extreme. If you are an Ex-Scientologist, and you were never a sea org member, then I think you should not be accepting these interpretations of your own time in Scientology without, at least, lots of examination of them for yourself.

When I was on mission staff, I was often “handled” by fanatical Sea Org members at SMI. I also received sec checks and other thought reform auditing programs by Ex-Int Base staff for a short time in the 1990’s for writing High Crime Reports on David Miscavige and each member of the Exec Strata. So I did experience some of those brainwashing and thought reform techniques that a lot of Sea Org members were put through.

But the overwhelming majority of Scientologists never experienced anything like that in Scientology.

Was I damaged by that?

Not really. I’d have to try real hard for a long time to make myself damaged by those experiences, and that’s something I’m not interested in spending my energy on.

I’m not saying that no one was damaged – I’m saying that I wasn’t.

Yet 1/3rd of Chris’ answer regarding the dispute between Tony Ortega and Mark Rathbun is about how Ex-Scientologists have been mentally damaged by Scientology. This is either an unexamined assumption Chris has about all ex-Scientologists, or it is an attempt to discredit Mark Rathbun, just as the Church tries to do to Rathbun, and to anyone else who criticizes Scientology.

Chris has been a busy guy here just 2 or so years after leaving the Church of Scientology. He is a great writer and is doing a great job learning and promoting critical thinking skills after Scientology. He has a book out, a blog, a youtube channel and a podcast. And he puts out a lot of great ideas, seemingly reaching many people who would otherwise not be reached.

But I think it’s a little too early for him to be speaking for all ex-Scientologists about their own mental states. He’s still a little too embedded in a certain mindset about Ex-Scientologists that began in the Church’s Office of Special Affairs, and rose up through Anonymous, and continues on ESMB and Tony Ortega’s blog to this day.

It’s the idea that anyone who was ever involved in Scientology is damaged and crazy, and has to recover from it.

There are many more constructive – and truthful – ways of seeing his and other’s time in Scientology, and an Ex’s life after Scientology, than that.

Chris presents too many assumptions here that are not true for most Exes.


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Claire Swazey

I just don’t read this as all being that generalized. Chris seems to be describing the different ways exes are affected. That’s fine with me.

What he does seem to be generalizing about is the Scn concepts and ideology itself. “Scientology screws people up”. Well, yeah, but WHAT Scientology is he discussing? Auditing? Other “tech”? Or the cultic milieu? Or all of that?

I personally think that some of we (yes I said “we”) other long time exes who had been long time members have just as good a grasp on this stuff as Chris does or Gerry, Arnie, Tory, etc. I appreciate all their efforts in trying to dissect this hideous mess we call Scn.

But I know what I know and I’ve seen what I’ve seen. So my take on the mess is this:

It’s mainly a self help thing gone rogue like a cancer where you have cells in the body that go haywire and create a very bad illness that, unchecked, spreads and kills the person. It starts when you walk in the door to take that first personality test, see a film, buy a book.

It gets rolling when you get some Book 1 auditing or do an entry level course and you seem to get something out of it. The cells go rogue the first time you get sent to ethics for being late, taking aspirin, or someone KRd you because your spouse said something critical or someone thought so. But you still aren’t showing the signs of being truly ill. It’s early days yet. You do more courses. You ratchet your course schedule up to every day. Then you join staff. You get yelled at and you start to fall behind in the Scn training you wanted and in paying bills and rent. The memories of the euphoria you felt in sessions and TRs recedes into distant memory. Now you mainly feel fear. Now the cancer is making itself felt. You are sick and although you may be in denial, you know it.

One day you get fed up and you leave. I compare that to the initial visit to the oncologist. You find out all us not lost- it’s not terminal. But you have a long road to recovery.

When you did Scn stuff, maybe it did help for a bit. Then came to metastizing of the cancer. A few pleasant procedures of whatever didn’t save you from the cancer. They may not have caused the cancer, but they were packaged in with it. This, Scn made you sick.

That’s only one hypothetical. There’s also a very likely scenario for various folks where Scn did not resonate with them and it didn’t do anything much for them. Then, when they got oppressed and hassled, they, like the other Scn’ists, got sick.

Either way, spending any great length of time, effort and money in CofS is a body and soul destroying thing and we come out of it weak and trembling.

But at least there’s hope when one gets away from the cult.


I think the detrimental impact of hubbard’s scientology cultist indoctrination and systematic thought reform varies individually from Ex to Ex and as such, it’s for the Ex to determine for themselves. Some people just need some time to decompress and re-assimilate into society, others seek out Therapy, while others escape without any negative aftereffects. A lot of grey there.

I’m not fond of the internet Ex culture which seems more interested in combative infighting, feeding drama addictions, I’m right & you’re wrong bombastic toxicity, and instigating everlasting spiteful grudge matches. I’ve met loan sharks that are more forgiving.

Scientology indoctrinates a person to dehumanize and relentlessly attack anyone considered an enemy at the drop of a hat. I see too much of that in the Ex culture and I urge everyone to embrace The Golden Rule.


the golden rule does not apply to scientology or dianetics.

There are no clears or OT’s, that’s not a golden rule. Even Hubbard admitted he failed.


The Golden Rule (treating others as one would wish to be treated oneself) is applicable to everyone. Sometimes people forget decency and civility should be the norm, not the exception.


I meant the subject of dianetics and scientology and not individuals. Otherwise I don’t have a problem with the golden rule as individuals are concerned.

Chris Thompson

“I’m not fond of the internet Ex culture which seems more interested in combative infighting, feeding drama addictions, I’m right & you’re wrong bombastic toxicity, and instigating everlasting spiteful grudge matches. I’ve met loan sharks that are more forgiving.”

. . . and imaginary self-importance. No one much except ourselves have noticed the coming and going of Scientology.

Lone Star

It’s totally fine for Chris to express his opinion, but what is not fine is for everyone in the ex and critic community to just accept is opinion as absolute fact. And many do. Including Tony O, I think.

I think Chris prides himself on trying to help “us” achieve logic and balance to our worldview so that we’ll never fall for a scam again. But last year he put out a video alleging that all conspiracy theories are wrong and that it’s illogical and perhaps “crazy” to look into them and find validity in any of them. Well, I’m sorry but that was an illogical approach to helping people discern conspiracy theories. In my opinion there IS validity to some of them. Not all of course. And there are lies and deceit to the “official explanations” to refute said theories. A real exercise in logic would be learning how to cut through the bullshit from both the theories AND the official stories, or explanations. No one should automatically trust any source on it’s face. Especially not at first. It takes effort and real work to get to the bottom of anything. Most don’t the time, patience, or inclination.

But Chris didn’t really give any helpful information on this. He basically inferred that just agree with the official explanations and discount any “conspiracy theories” like a good little mentally healthy boy or girl. Well…..what if the official stories have logical holes in them? I don’t think it is honest or helpful to encourage “us” to just “go along to get along”. Sorry….I’ll never do that. In fact….Fuck That. I don’t need some ex-SO dude in Denver telling me how to think, thank you.

IMO Shelton often engages in sophistry and tries to pawn it off as “logic”. Orrrrrrr….he is really impressed with himself and in his own way believes he is truly helping people. Which is probably the case.


I know the video you’re talking about. Listening to the first 90 seconds, Chris admits conspiracy theorists could be right. That’s not so bad, is it?

Lone Star

Yes he did admit at first that CTs could be right. But I think that he was being either disingenuous, or he was being inconsistent. Or both. Either way, the name of his video was “Conspiracy Theories Suck”. By inference that means all of them. No exception. Which is bullshit. The world is not just black or white. Also by inference he is saying that all who believe in any conspiracy theories suck. Okay. Then I have the right to say that he’s both condescending and wrong. Not to mention attacking people’s character with a very broad brush. Talk about profiling.

Many conspiracy theories are ridiculous. Some are not. Some have very strong elements of truth. Some “official story lines” are ridiculous and full of spin and outright lies. I know it may be shocking to Chris and others, but governments do lie and cover-up their crimes against the people and other nations. But I won’t say that everyone who believes them “suck”.

The rules of logic should be applied to both CTs and Official Stories.

John Doe

I think the recovery process is as varied as are the individuals coming out of Scn.

We often assume our experience with something is typical of everyone else’s.

Chris Shelton has stated he thinks his recovery process will go on for years and years. Maybe that is a self-fulfilling prophecy. In any event, his path of recovery is his own.

Some exes wave their hand and say, “Scn was ALL bullshit.” To me, that looks suspiciously like just more black and white thinking. But to them, I respect their chosen path.

My interest is in broadening my education about what I experienced in Scn, both the bad and the good, and where I DID achieve a benefit, examining other explanations of what may have taken place.

This way, I can own the wins, understand the culty shitC and move forward.


This particular Chris Shelton vid was disappointing.

Why has Chris, who has built a reputation on critical, analytical thinking, provided personal opinions about any individual’s mental health or the mental health of a group? Where are the studies? Where are the facts? Where is the objectivity? It’s all opinions and unprofessional.


I’m wondering what is the point of playing Ex vs Ex here? I had enough of that at ESMB. That’s why I left. I think I’ll get on with going my way wishing everyone a good life.


Ex Ex, I think most of Chris Shelton’.s vids about Scientology are terrific, particularly the ones where he breaks down different aspects of Scientology and uses different types of logic and references. There’s nothing quite like them and he’s a good speaker. In those, he presents a great deal of research, too and provides a valuable tool and service to many who were in Scientology.

This vid does none of that. There are no quotes and no references to logic. It is a subjective vid containing his personal opinions. That’s fine, but I think if Chris wants to talk about his personal experiences and opinions based on those experiences, then he should be clear that the vid is strictly subjective and not a critical thinking vid.

If he wants to do a vid that takes Scientology apart with critical thinking, that’s kind of his specialty. Vids of opinions that step outside the critical thinking mode and don’t present facts are different and I didn’t like this one.

It seems to me we should be able to look at things critically and objectively ourselves and not have to accept every single thing a person does as a masterpiece. Not seeing everything the same way doesn’t mean infighting if we treat each other respectfully and are polite. Chris does a terrific job and I hope he gets back to critical thinking vids again.


I’d agree alanzo, using the phrase “mental state” I think, is also the wrong wording. It puts a condition on people, after all scientology is for “making the able more able” and is not supposed to deal with people that actually do have a “mental state” unless if they do indeed have money. But Hubbard sure did tell us we had a mental state, ie, if one is not clear why one is still crazy because an engram could be keyed in at any time and make us crazy. Laughter

I think a better term would be something more like educational level or knowledge level, I don’t know, maybe you have a phrase or term?

My coming out had nothing to do with “mental state”. When I finally decided to do a due diligence, that is compare scientology teachings to other philosophy, and how Hubbard tricked us, I had cognitions. Also reading the many coming out stories on Marty’s blog had a major impact. I realized the sheeple in on how great scientology is with the success stories, why the sheeple out with their stories is just as valid.

But, anyways, it’s all good.

Chris Thompson

You are right to emphasize the duration of one’s involvement as a factor in the duration of unraveling on muhammad need to endure.

Claire M Swazey

Lots of factors to consider here re exes being damaged.

How deeply immersed did they get? The more involved, the more ppl get messed with by cult staff.

How strong, decent and levelheaded was this person to begin with?

What services dos he or she do? Though I personally think Scn has some benefit, I also think that there are inherent problems with some of the OT stuff. Ppl who dabble in occultism often have problems from that. It does depend on the person, but hey, look at Ron. It seems to have made him worse.

And, finally, free will plays a part.


It’s easy to refer to the post-Scn years as “recovery”, especially for those 10+ year veterans. Those who are truly “in” (e.g. org staff, Sea Org, Clears, OTs) rarely leave without some drama. Most often it is this drama that becomes the topic of discussion. For those declared SP, this will include a health dose of injustice. In other words, they’ve been fucked over.

Now, just as there are subjective and objective gains from Scn, I think there are subjective and objective damages. For example:

Wife divorces you because you’ve been declared SP
Kids disconnect from you because you’ve been declared SP
You filed for bankruptcy due to donations to the IAS and Ideal Orgs
You got fired from your job because you’ve been declared SP
You were held against your will and died at the Fort Harrison

All your stable datum have been destroyed once you discovered what Scn really was
You regret all the money you spent on services, and didn’t even get a T-shirt
You endured brutal Sec Checking
You feel like you’ve been conned and deceived
You feel betrayed after decades of loyal support and service
You’ve attested to Clear or OT and feel you cannot demonstrate the state

When Chris Shelton speaks of recovery I feel he is referring to the “subjective damages” caused by Scn.

How do you recover your self-esteem, your confidence; how do you false data-strip the lies; how do you re-integrate, re-wire for life in the real world?

Objective damages are verifiable. Subjective damages are…well, not. That doesn’t make any more invalid.

“Recovery” from damages inflicted by Scn means you have to overcome, rise above the objective and subjective damages. Some of these damages, such as objective damages, you have to learn to live with (e.g. your spouse is never going to get back with you). Getting over subjective damages is really up to the individual.

To assume EVERYONE experiences objective and subject damage from Scn is obviously absurd. Everyone is different. Everyone leaves in their own way. Everyone “recovers” in their own way. So why propose a blanket statement about anyone who leaves Scn? Or imply we are all damaged?

Within six months of being declared I was thoroughly and completely through with Hubbard and Scientology – completely, totally, no-going-back – through.

So, I am I still “recovering”? Am I delusional? Thinking I’ve recovered from Scn?

Really? So, you know me better than me?

I think not.

The Oracle

I love being explained and defined to the world, by Chris Shelton. He is truly a “Scientologist whisperer”. Describing us as “damaged goods” was so insightful. And I love the way he speaks to us as if he were teaching little children at the front of a classroom. He is not afraid to reach down to our level. Thank you Chris !

George M. White


George M. White

This is Path of Buddha who posts on MR’s blog.
There is great practical value from my experience as an ex-scientologist.
I fully handled teminatedly the Jehovah Witnesses who were knocking on my door
every two weeks after I disabled the doorbell.

The Oracle

Laughter! You rogue!

The Oracle

The Mormon missionaries stopped coming by after I blew two of them out of the Church. I did not mean to. Even read the Book of Mormon so I could talk with them! I loved talking to them. They are beautiful people inside and out. Now I am blacklisted.

At the end, they were escorted by an elder Bishop. He arrived very holy, knowing, and above it all, but after 45 minutes he blew up on me. WTF? Because I covered his ice cream with a peach sauce that had brandy in it. I made that peach sauce with peaches from my own peach tree. He ate it all. Said it was the best ice cream he had ever had. I wrote the recipe down for his wife at his request. He said it was the first time alcohol had touched his lips and he was 80 years old. It was like, I had raped him or something.

They live so they can co exist with God after this life. He is elsewhere. On another planet. And I am saying, “No, he is with me here right now. I have always co existed with God.” And they are like. “It isn’t God. It’s Jesus Christ.” And I am like, “Is not”. “Is too”. “Is not”. “is too”. Well you know how that goes.

Then I pointed out they are asking me to disavow my connection with God. How religious is that? .

I mean, the rage. Why? When I bend over backwards with symbiotic intent.

George M. White

That story really gets to the point about Mormons.
I handled the Jehovah Witnesses by showing them my meditation hall with the
huge Buddha statue. Then I invite them for meditation classes. They never return.
I feel bad about getting to that point but nothing else worked.

I learned a lesson getting out of Scientology. For me it was really simple. All I did was stop talking about it in public and in private. When I had no urge to speak about it, the gaps in my life filled in.
Chris Shelton never applied to me but I admire his drive to expand his own mission. He also has talent in media.

The Oracle

Laughter! They are very easy to open up to and talk with because they are very bright and open and proud. They have a curfew, the missionaries, they have to be in bed by 10:00 and out of bed by 6:00 a.m.. They have to pay attention to their watches come around 9:00. They really have to work also, in the community. Taking care of elderly and infirm. Helping the Church and working in the food banks. And their families have to pay 400.00 a month for them to be in the program for two years. The first year I was here they came once a week minimum. They were very good company. I’ll bet they liked coming to talk with you. You must have pushed them out of the box a bit. I knew they were not supposed to have alcohol, but when you cook it in a sauce I thought the alcohol evaporated and went out. So, I didn’t think I was giving them alcohol. Maybe I wasn’t. But I guess I wasn’t up to speed. At first I was appalled at the women’s place in their community. They are really supposed to stand behind the men all the way, not even the same rights. But now that all my girlfriends here are Mormon, I am seeing it from a different angle. They love the culture because of the hold the Church has over the men. Their men will not stray or leave them. It is a two way street that seems to work for both on some level. I’ve gone to some of the Church services for the women, taken there by someone I met. The women are still very curious and wanting to be your friend even if you don’t join. Some have opened to me with very personal issues and I felt honored to be trusted. They have to wear this underwear that has tops with capped sleeves. So, they can not wear anything strapless or sleeveless. One thing they love to do is try on my clothes and jewelry. Covet in secret. Laughter! They are very, very feminine and it is so refreshing to be around them. They know everything about make up, hair and grooming. They don’t have the shame run on them for being women, and being interested and absorbed in “trivial” feminine things. I’ve always been obsessed with agriculture, so the men come by now asking how to fix their lawn, or what happened to their lawn. Or what is happening to their tomato plant on the patio. Or what is going on with hedges or trees. They do not exclude me from contributing because I am not Mormon. As neighbors. Now, they come by to get cucumbers or peppers from my greenhouse. We are working on getting people to stop using chemicals in the neighborhood for weeds and pests. Using organic. Honestly, it is like living in the 1930’s here, socially.

George M. White

You have more patience than I have.
When I talk to the JW’s, I go straight to the core issue and they get very defensive. Like I usually say that I love the Bible but cannot accept the Bible as my religion. They really get agitated.

George M. White

Alanzo, Thanks for the summary of Chris Shelton’s video. I had a rough time getting in the full 18 minutes.
As I understand it, Chris has been out of Scientology only a few years. I can see in the video that he has more questions about the subject and think that is great. I get the feeling that deep critics of Scientology can make it a profession. We do have freedom of religion. Shelton is loudly sounding the alarm, and that seems to create waves of fear. This fear is what I see as a barrier to real communication on the subject.

The Oracle

Wow! That is great that you have a meditation hall. You are so right about not talking about it. Where I am in Utah it is 80% Mormon. The J.W. come by here too but rarely. Maybe three times a year, the same people. The line they have here is that the Bible must survive. (I guess because the Mormons replaced it with the book of Mormon?) Maybe it is because of the challenge they have here in a Mormon community, but they feel very sneaky and have 1.1 comments which are directed towards the Mormons. I guess they are trying to say the Mormons are a threat. It is deliberate sabotage in the Mormon community. Like, they are crossing over into gang territory. But that feels like their intention rather than to spread information or knowledge. Their eyes dart around a lot also as if they are fear. No need to be. The Mormons are a gracious culture and totally non threatening. But they seem to be filled with an enemy vibe, and really paranoid. I don’t bother talking with them. I could never be part of a religion that excludes Christmas and birthday celebrations. I had a friend in grammar school suffer through that. It was a very cruel thing to do to a child, run those kind of can’t haves. She is probably running an anti J.W. site now.

George M. White

I did not know you lived in Utah. I did know that you were great in agriculture because you told me how to fix my lawn which is thriving this year.
When I lived in Pennsylvania in the late 1970’s, we had limited contact with the Amish. They would not use electricity, as I remember.
My wife and I have created a very Buddhist environment in our home. We do not have television or any kind of cable. We do have internet. We have an extensive library of books on Buddhism. I always mildly laugh when people come to visit. We have Buddha statues all around and people think that I am going to try to convert them. You can always tell when they mention their own religion first when I did not even ask. We avoid discussion of religion with others. I learned this the hard way having been point person in the Buddhist temple for over eight years. We get about one in a hundred with lasting interest and that usually fades. The Buddha said not to bother with conversion.
It is a great relief.

The Oracle

Just moved here recently. A year and half been here. Working on a home purchased only halfway through construction that was lived in for fifteen years that way, with two people and six kids. Halfway there on renovations, after a year. Blew a lot of time on the outside, landscaping and gardening (greenhouse). Down to planting Thai spices and Indian Spices. Going for curry leaf trees now and Kaffir lime trees. Thai peppers, lemon grass, roots and ginger etc.. Got crazy and put a pond in the middle. Most of the house had no dry wall or electricity Very strange, but nobody else wanted to take it on so we got a great price on it..Your home sounds marvelous. Very spiritual. Point person is a new word for me, I like it! off to scrub paint off, one more bedroom finished. Still can’t believe I thought trees from Oregon would grow in this red clay. That was pretty stupid and cost me a lot of time and effort. Done with making the impossible possible, when it comes to farming. I sent you a friend request on FB a while back. In case you wander over there and wonder….. Always a pleasure finding out more about you.

George M. White

Have not been on FB due to a hotmail crash. I cannot get any invitations until I change out the server. I’ll try to fix it, if I can.
We have had a lot of success with Japanese eggplants here in Florida. These are amazing little plants which really produce for us.
We have a curry tree given to us by a generous monk. It is also doing very well.
Very interesting about your house. I have been working on rental properties, but code enforcement in Hillsborough County have been tough. This has prevented a lot of wealth building.
I’ll do what I can to fix FB.
Getting fully out of Scientology took a lot of hard work especially after the OT VIII experience.

Claire M Swazey

Hmmm… If the brandy (while on the sauce) had been cooked at all, the alcohol would have evaporated out of there anyway. If not, then here’s a biblical quote that seems apropos: Ban is born to trouble as the sparks fly upward.

The Oracle

Laughter! Thank you Claire! I was certain it was not alcoholic after being cooked down into a peach sauce, and then cooked down in the canning process too! That simple quote has a lot of meaning. Very interesting, thanks.

The Oracle

P.S. Feels very good to be back in your company Claire. I have thought of you often.

Claire M Swazey

It’s nice to talk to you, as well!

The Oracle

Don’t mean to highjack the thread. Leah was nice enough to open me up on Facebook to post it there on her page, so I am hoping Alanzo will be generous with me too. Just an open call for helping Tom to care for his little girl. Thanks all.


As a person who was born and raised in scientology I feel it was/is very damaging. I wasn’t ever in the SO, but growing up being taught to think the way they do and believe the things they do definitely screwed with my view and understanding of the world. It’s takes a lot of time and thought to dig your way out of that.

Letting go

As a person who was born and raised in scientology, and spent most of that time in the so-called cadet org, I concur. I would also add that some of the ideas absorbed by being in that culture are so close to one that it can be difficult to discern and identify them as ‘not mine’ or not the way one wants to think any more.

Haggling over which word to use for the leaving process might be the wrong approach. Everyone will find a word they are comfortable with, sooner or later, if it suits them. I see my path as a mixture of recovery, healing and also learning things about relationships I preferably would have learned from role models as a child.

Now I say: so what. It is what it is. It would have been nice to have a better start in life, but an abusive environment is not too unusual. I think a professional can provide a model of a healthy, connected life to compare against. Otherwise, nobody can really tell others their experience was bad, or was not as bad as they think, or trivialise it. The result of having been associated with scn is a very personal assessment.

steven jones

My issues with Chris are some of the same ones I had with him when he was still in. Chris talks a good game, but he has hardly mastered logical thinking (he was a 9/11 further up until recently), and he thinks he is far smarter than he actually is. His expounding on Marty and Monique is offensive because he has no actual information to add. He’s just spouting words to make noise. And not even intelligent words. Plus, the hitting people up for support via Patreon is lame and now he reviews Sci_fi movies? Can anyone figure out what his film critic credentials are?

I always said Chris would cut down on the krs if he just had a 2d. Who knew it would be even truer now?

Claire M Swazey

Oh, now, why shouldn’t he review movies? It’s just a fun thing he wants to do. I get your points and I don’t agree with everything Chris says, but that’s life. While I’m certainly in favor of debating and demurring where one had disagreements, I really hope for civility.

Speaking as someone who’s been the subject of numerous witch cu– oops, I mean witch hunts, that may have started with disagreements but ended up like a scene from Mean Girls, Saved, or Heathers- I just don’t see the point of complaining about personalities and little things like reviewing movies.

I’ve seen recent escapees do the lecture circuit thing before- that Lerma fan with all the nicks- Mockingbird- he annoyed people, too.

At the end of the day, Chris, Mockingbird, you, me, any of our friends here- we’re just trying to figure out what the eff happened and why.

Wanna know a fave topic of conversation at Chez Swazey? Our sojourn in CofS especially staff. Yeah, we discuss LRH, The Midget, etc- but we come back to our experiences a lot vis s vis wtf happened and why. We may not ALL do that, but many of us do. Inevitably, somebody will arrive at a different conclusion. Inevitably, somebody will pontificate. I know I surely have done so.


Hi Alanzo,

You asked me several questions on Martys blog. I’ll answer them here since on his current tread and past treads that I have posted he has clipped my postings and also did not allow my posts to go thru. I did not ad hom in postings he clipped or the one’s he did not allow thru.

That’s fine, I don’t really care, I just will not be posting there anymore since it is not really a open forum. My stick will always be the so called religion of scientology is a fake in that the whole purpose of it is to produce a clear and then OT and there are none. as you know.

you asked me:

So singanddanceall –

How does “”Marty has always been an asshole. Nothing has changed”. do anything constructive for Ex-Scientologists, who by the way, include Marty Rathbun?

ANSWER: I agree, but it’s just a person’s opinion, although ad hom. And I don’t wish to read ex’s ad hom’ing each other. I think it is wrong.

The church of Scientology engages in this kind of useless and even destructive denigration of Ex-Scientologists – especially when it is constant and unceasing as it is on ESMB. Why should this kind of rude insult be allowed to be so rampant on the Ex-Scientologist Message Board?

ANSWER: It shouldn’t, but there is the possibly people do not understand ad hom fully.

You do realize that this is a standard OSA dead agent line on Marty Rathbun, don’t you?

ANSWER: yes, I understand that is what OSA does based on LRH policy, also called “fair game” which is actually the same as “ad hom” and probably people who post do not know this. Don’t know, maybe they do, maybe they do not know, maybe they do not know the effects it creates. If what I state is true, then it is unintentional for ex’s. Dead Agent is ad hom retermed by Hubbard. So maybe people do not know. To assume all ex’s know is not quite right w/o proof.

What if Gizmo was challenged to say something worthwhile and constructive by the moderators on ESMB, instead of this kind of disrespectful and ad hominem personal attack? He could still voice his opinion, he just would not be allowed to be this disrespectful, in violation of ESMB’s own rules.

ANSWER: I agree. The mods maybe to busy to really snuff this out, afteral, they work for free. But I don’t know.

It is against their rules, as I have shown on my blog.


ANSWER: yes.

So why do you think it was allowed on the board?

ANSWER: reasons above.



BTW, the war is not over. There are still people trapped in scientology sea org, orgs and missions.

Here is my reference, your latest post:


Let’s try something here

Singanddanceall – On almost every post you make you exclaim No Clears! No OTs! It’s repetitious and annoying. I already know that and so does everyone else. You’re talking down to me so why don’t you just shove your repetitious MANTRA!

OK – So now the moderator (Alanzo) is going to have some “fun”. Is he supposed to jump in and teach me to be more polite? Multiply my aggressive post by 10 people posting on different threads (ESMB) and it seems being a moderator wouldn’t be much fun. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.


Hey singanddanceall – I’m not at all hostile toward you! I enjoy your comments! I was just making the point that how I express a minor annoyance (relative to if I had attacked you personally) might put a moderator into a fix.

It actually might be fun being a moderator. One would certainly be in the mix of a lot of human, albeit internet, interaction.


yah I know I repeat that too much. I’ll cool it. I just wish the media would get off trying to call scientology a religion when the whole purpose of dianetics and scientology is to produce a clear and OT. Oh, just thought of something, so maybe the media can call it a failed religion if they are scared of using that word by it’s lonesome.

But, anywho, I have no beef with anybody here or elsewhere. No reason for Alanzo to step in. Take care NC2M.



Hi singanddance! – I liked your observation above, “Dead agent is adhom retermed by Hubbard.” He retermed almost everything.

WTF Is an “Operating Thetan”?! A “Sage”? He woulda got called out fast for saying that.

I got in a big debate one time with a guy about scn being a religion. He insisted Tubbs always called it a religion. I finally let it go by agreeing with him that when I was in I beleived in everything, so it was my FAITH! – Laughter


yah, it’s also called Character Assassination.

“Character assassination is an attempt to tarnish a person’s reputation. It may involve exaggeration, misleading half-truths, or manipulation of facts to present an untrue picture of the targeted person. It is a form of defamation and can be a form of ad hominem argument.

Hubbard was pretty big at that and called anybody who opposed scientology an SP, and that includes whistle blowers & critical thinkers, people that had been involved for a long time.

Yah know, when I first got involved why everybody said, public and staff, are you going to the “org”, are you coming into the “org” tonight. LOL

Somewhere along the way it got changed to are you going to the “church” tonight. Laughing. It was so subtle I didn’t even notice as I was saying the same words. Here’s what funny too, I got involved because of the “science” of the mind part and not the religious woo part, ie Operating Thetan.


hey, I loved high school, it was a great time, many friends.

Same with college, many friends.

Same with scientology, many friends.

Lone Star, that’s it, you are on double secret probation, you cause too many toilets to explode every spring, every Halloween the trees are filed with underwear, etc, laughing.


Created by Alanzo