The Incomparable Miss Tia on Having Been a Denizen of The Underground Bunker

Miss Tia has just posted a comment to this blog which I believe should be put front and center for all to see.

Miss Tia says it all.

the incomparable miss tia[This is copy/pasted from a blog post I made this morning. I back dated it to March 1, as I really want to put this all behind me and move FORWARD! 🙂 ]

I didn’t really want to make this public. But the more I thought about it and the more I was questioned and love bombed, the more I realized I had kept some opinions/thoughts to myself for too long and I didn’t need to do that anymore. Mostly though, it’s because I’ve been continual questioned as to when I’m returning to the bunker and the inability of some to understand that “I’m done” means just that. This is the only time I am writing about this. All the love bombing of the past few days and questioning has got my TMJ flared up again. Just leave me alone please. You’ll see there is no ‘handling’ that can be done for me. I’m posting this and then the door will be shut, locked, and bricked over. I’m done.

I’ll say this again below, but I want to say this upfront (though why I have no idea, I know my words will be taken out of context and be misconstrued): There are good people in the bunker. Good, caring individuals who end up doing/saying things they probably wouldn’t normally do (just like Scientologists) because of the group think/hive mentality. I want to stress there’s good people there. Their actions are more than likely not something they’d normally do–with. of course, a few exceptions. 🙂

If I were to pinpoint exactly when my disillusionment began with Scientology watching, I’d have to say the seed was planted with the Going Clear premiere. Yeah, really. I sat here and watched it and whereas yes, I’m aware he couldn’t cover everything in the book; the editing was good; the pace was good; etc I just felt something was missing. I read all the superlative comments how it was awesome, amazing, etc and was like, really? Seemed like hyperbole. This isn’t a documentary review though. But the group cheer leading with no criticism planted a seed that stayed dormant for awhile.

The seed started to get germinated at the Parma event in September. At the after event,the incomparable miss tia Tony asked the group if one of us would start a fight with Media_Lush so he had an excuse to ban him. Someone asked him why and he said, basically, it was because of the blind gossip items he kept posting and how they were wrong but ML persisted they were right. What kind of behavior is that? To request someone to start a fight with someone else so they’d be banned?

The seed went dormant again until, I’d say, probably March. That’s when the undue stress and strain caused by an individual regarding HowdyCon started. I decided to take a big step back from the comments and not participate as much but just watch in a detached manner. I did not like what I saw. Hypocrisy, vitriol, manipulation, hero worship, group think, group paranoia, and I identified each of those as having been something I had fully participated in and I was appalled at myself. The more I thought about it, the more I realized the parallels between the bunker and Scientology in some ways. Again, I was appalled at myself. On the other hand though, it serves as a reminder that ANYONE can become involved in a toxic cult like group that fronts as trying to help others, just like Scientology.

Some people screen grab every single comment in the bunker, as does OSA. OSA is derided and mocked for that; but the bunkerites who do it aren’t. What’s the difference? To both groups I’d ask ‘why do that?’ I know the answer a few bunkerites would give. They’d say it was done in an attempt to suss out ‘socks’. Who cares if there’s sock accounts though? Some people see ’26’ in every new poster. For a bit after 26, I admit I took part in some sock hunting but I quit shortly after I started because it just seemed wrong to be analyzing certain posters, what they said, trying to verify those things, etc. Though I once again partook with Rick in Indy. I shouldn’t have done that, that was wrong.

Media_Lush ended up being banned, without warning, because he posted a fat shaming the incomparable miss tiaphoto of Kirstie Alley. Never mind that Kirstie should be ‘fair game’ for fat shaming because of her endless public announcements of dissatisfaction with her weight, her weight loss business forays, and deal with Jenny Craig. All the while, publicly showing that Scientology can’t fix the weight problems she feels she has. Tony posted about ML being banned in such a way that of course everyone fell in line and agreed with him about it.

The last time I was in the bunker, Mark had posted a fat shaming photo of John Sugg. I commented asking why it was okay for some people to be able to fat shame; but not others, wasn’t that hypocrisy? Or did it depend on the who was in the ‘in crowd’. It was more of a rhetorical statement/question. But Mark twisted the situation to make it seem like I was personally attacking HIS size and others fell in place. I said/did no such thing. Then Baby was sent to ‘handle’ me saying I should have commented to Mark on an older post and that it wasn’t like me to comment like that. Well, one, why would/should I comment on a back post? Fuck that. Two, that IS me. I question unfairness, hypocrisy, double standards, however you wish to put it. John Sugg, unlike Kirstie, as far as I know, has not made any public declarations about having issues with his weight and/or publicly gone on weight loss plans. Oh wait, he writes revolting things about others, so therefore he’s ‘fair game’. I concur he writes revolting things; but it doesn’t mean he should be fat shamed when others can’t do it. But Mark is in the ‘in crowd’ so it’s okay I guess.

Alanzo was banned for an email he sent. Ah, judged for what you do outside the confines the incomparable miss tiaof the bunker. Huh, reminds me of some religion. Tony portrayed it as that Alanzo had threatened that therapist so of course people rallied behind him as a champion of women, a chivalrous man, and isn’t he just great? Now, I am not privy to the email Alanzo sent; but, I have seen the comments he posted in the bunker about that therapist. They were not threatening, he was cordially pointing out where he felt she was violating the state’s ethic code with her comments on Cathy Tweed. He also praised her work with former Scientologists. Alanzo made excellent points in his posts and I’m sure he did in his email too. Is it a threat to point out that you might be violating your code of ethics? I don’t think so.

Epsi was banned for questioning a poster he felt could be a sock. Yet, people are encouraged to police the comments themselves. Shortly prior to Epsi being banned, both he and Howdy were warned they’d be banned. Can you imagine had Howdy been banned? Though I have no doubt people would have fell in line and agreed with it.

Back to the mention of Cathy Tweed. Here’s where chivalry is dead. That article was sickening. Posting a dead young woman’s deleted Facebook comments? Having that therapist analyze and criticize her mother, Cathy Tweed, who is a private individual, not someone who is in the public eye. Where were all the alleged champions of mental health on that post decrying that it was wrong? Crickets. Shamefully I didn’t speak out either; but if others felt as I did, they might have felt like me: too frightened to say something. One cannot go against the grain in a major way. People were vilifying Cathy in the comments though. Even some Ex-Scientologists were too. You’d have thunk they would have had a better understanding of how/why Cathy was handling the death as she was, as they had once had those same beliefs. Instead, no, she’s a Scientologist and it’s fair game to crucify her publicly, though she’s a private person and not public. That was one of the most sickening displays I’d ever seen on the bunker.

Speaking of vilification, Marty Rathbun. Do I really need to say anything on this? Sure, of course I do. How/why Tony dislikes him is something only known to him. His opinion of Marty comes through in his writing though (more on that in a bit). When the Rathbuns fired their attorneys and dropped the lawsuit, Tony said for people not to speculate. What did he do? Speculate with Texas Lawyer. Including tossing out the idea that they had walked away from millions of dollars. That’s some major $peculation right there. The disdain and contempt Tony holds for Marty is palpable. He further allows the vilification of him in the comments. Such horrible comments about Marty by the bunker. Why people dislike him so much I have never understood nor will understand. In some ways, it seems he’s disliked more than David Miscavige. The level of vitriol towards him is horrible. I’ll never ‘get’ that. The Rathbuns owed no one, especially not the bunker or Tony, an explanation as to why they fired their attorneys or dropped the suit. I do think, as his opinion of Marty was woven into the story, that Tony was, in a way, fair gaming them. I understand where Marty is coming from in his statements. When I left the bunker for good I sent him an apology for making the ‘rue the day’ memes and he graciously accepted it and recommended a book for me to read. It was an excellent book choice, exactly what I needed then and I can’t thank him enough for that. (Ah, yes, I was consorting with a bunker enemy, that’s high treason isn’t it?)

Someone else whom apparently Tony doesn’t like is Carmen LLywelyn and again, chivalry the incomparable miss tiais quite dead. As she has on her blog, he posted a comment claiming he had interviewed her extensively and never did anything with it, so make of that what you will. The implication being she was not credible enough for him. She says she only had a 10 minute conversation with him, he did most of the talking, and they agreed to meet up so he COULD interview her. She tried to arrange that; but he never got back to her. I believe her.

Since he had posted that comment about her, that made her ‘fair game’. One of the last days I was in the bunker there was a conversation going on about Carmen. I left in the midst of it, as it was disgusting. They were trying to psychoanalyze her. Then someone commented that they knew her personally and she was crazy. No one questioned that person, they accepted it as fact. Another individual put forth a conspiracy theory that Scientologists might have gotten to her and to Marty because both were posting denouncing Tony and the bunker around the same time. Uh huh, cuz you’d have to be crazy to have an issue with Tony or the bunker? And/or Scientologists would have had to have paid you off to do that? SMDH It’s called seeing things how they really are. Both Carmen and Marty are victims of Tony and the bunker. They have every right to be angry, hurt, and upset.

Some Ex-Scientologists are viewed as heroes by Tony and the bunker. Others are viewed with scorn and contempt. How these views are determined I don’t know. I can only make guesses, assumptions, and speculations. I’d prefer not to do that.

As aforementioned, opinions of individuals comes through in many posts. Such as Marty, and most certainly Cathy Tweed. I could list others, but those are the two best current examples I can think of. I also prefer not to ruminate on the bunker. Opinion woven into a ‘news story’ leads readers, usually always unknowingly, to agree with the author. It’s like most current ‘news’ articles today with a political bent–towards either side. Aren’t the Rathbuns’ attorneys selfless heroes who were shafted out of money? You’d have to be crazy to fire these brilliant legal eagles, right? Let’s have Texas Lawyer give an opinion that meshes with ours, that’ll shape how people think to ensure they agree with us. Isn’t it horrible how Cathy Tweed is handling her daughter’s suicide? Let’s have a counselor give an opinion that meshes with ours, that’ll shape how people think to ensure they agree with us. And what was up with the title of the ‘Lisa Marie Defection’ article? Purely misleading as she had already defected Scientology.

Now, I don’t wish to denounce Tony’s work as a whole. It might seem that way; but no. He does provide a valuable service. But when he starts letting his personal opinion of others soak into articles, leads a group into agreeing with him, and tries to intervene in things behind the scenes (there are things told to me in confidence and it’s not for me to disclose those things, I’m sure in time the individuals involved will disclose them), that’s not ethical journalism. It’s not even ethical as a human being. He tries to portray himself as humble; but it seems more and more it’s just a veneer. Does he know he’s surrounded by sycophants? Do the sycophants know they’re sycophants? I know I was unaware I was one until a few months ago.

It’s claimed people can have different opinions in the bunker. Well yes and no. Yes,the incomparable miss tia you can differ on say, the kind of music you like, food, etc; but you cannot differ on whom is ‘in’ or ‘out’. Those ‘in’ or ‘out’ include those in the bunker; Ex-Scientologists, as some are alleged good, others bad; reporters/websites; and the consensus that Scientology, wholly, is horrible and should be eradicated. Those who’ve mentioned, exes, that they still audit, or read some LRH works, are put on the ‘handling’ list. You know what I realized? If doing some of that helps them, why shouldn’t they? What’s wrong with that? They aren’t hurting anyone. It’d be like a former Catholic who still takes comfort in praying the rosary. There’s too much judgment and attempts to control others. Like some religion I know of.

Of course, some exes CAN do Scientology auditing and/or reading and it’s okay. Others cannot. It all depends on who is ‘in’ or ‘out’. The unwritten rules don’t count for some. Isn’t there a religion that has rules that only apply to some not all? Huh.

If your opinion differs on one of the things on the unwritten list of ‘you need to get in line and think like all us’; then there’s attempts to ‘handle’ you. Comments to try to get you to change your opinion, the email brigade will kick in, and you either just concede or shut up about it because you don’t want to end up with what would happen next: disconnection. Yeah, just like some religion, if you persist in a differing opinion, refuse to be handled, then your exclusion begins. You don’t want to be on the ‘outs’ do you? No, of course not. Do you know how many times I kept my opinion to myself because I knew what would happen? Shamefully far more than I can count. I didn’t want to be on the ‘outs’. I was unaware at the time, but that suppression of myself was chipping away at my soul. Why would I do this? I SPEAK OUT! Cuz I was fearful. Fearful of what? Well what happens when you’re excluded. Don’t we all seek a sense of belonging? Just like some religion I know of.

Once you’re excluded, fair gaming can/will begin. Every comment you ever made is analyzed, because of course they have screen shots of every single comment. You’re followed around the internet and your activities there are screen grabbed and analyzed. Sometimes you’ll be attacked on other sites when you’re not even posting about Scientology. You know this has happened. In one instance I took part a few years ago. I’m going to send them an apology today. They deserve it. It was wrong, I was wrong, and I need to apologize.

the incomparable miss tia

There’s fair game and black PR as you’re analyzed, diagnosed, dissected, turned into a joke, a meme, and Tony allows this in the comments as people are destroyed. Perhaps it’s difficult to realize online but there are real human beings with feelings and emotions behind the computer. That doesn’t matter in the midst of a bunker feeding frenzy. The same people who will show such kindness and consideration for others, will turn and destroy those that are deemed ‘not worthy’. I don’t believe for a second they’re consciously aware of what they’re doing. As I said, I did it too. Until I viewed things in a detached manner, I wasn’t aware of those things about myself. I’m ashamed and disgusted with myself. It goes to show though, that anyone can fall into a group think/hive mentality. Those that judge people who got into Scientology need to give pause for thought about how/why they’ve gotten into the Bunker group think/hive mentality. What’s the difference? Sure, the human rights abuse, physical abuse, etc but the GROUP THINK HIVE MENTALITY is there. Once you’re in that, you can/will do things you wouldn’t normally do.

Hypocrisy does rule the day in the bunker.

There are good people in the bunker (just like in Scientology). They do things they normally wouldn’t as they’re under the power of group think (just like in Scientology). They think what they’re doing is for the greater good (just like in Scientology). There’s a snitching culture, there’s a form of ethics, and if people would detach and look objectively, they’d see what they’d become. I’m not proud of it. It’s made me physically sick (In addition to the ‘fun’ with HowdyCon that exacerbated my health problems–thanks Spike!) and I’m leaving this behind.

Due to my severe PTSD I try to avoid conflict/confrontation at all cost. I didn’t really want to write this; but I kept getting pushed and pushed with the emails; love bombing—I mean really? emails from people I never talked to to begin with, you didn’t think I’d see through that?; and the apparent group think that I’d return. I said I was done. I meant it. I deleted my disqus. That was it, done. Now you know why and y’all can spend a few days dissecting me, analyzing me, villainizing me, etc. I don’t care. I’ve already done it to myself. I’m done with Scientology Watching. I don’t even read the news anymore nor even dlisted. I’m done with all that. This is not open for discussion.

In a way it’s a shame I couldn’t have just been allowed to quietly go away, as I would have preferred; yet in another way, it’s good to get this out. Good bye, good luck, I wish you all the best.


Mic drop

Exit stage RIGHT.

the incomparable miss tia

36 thoughts on “The Incomparable Miss Tia on Having Been a Denizen of The Underground Bunker”

  1. I would still love to talk to you Tia, I consider you a trusted friend. I have to say you’re dropping off the face of the earth has hurt my heart. I can’t even remember the last time we talked about scientology as we had so many other things in common. If you still have my email, or can get it, I hope you feel I am someone safe to talk to no matter what. You don’t have to respond to me here. And only if you feel comfortable, I’m trying to be all Buddha like with no expectations. I will always be happy to hear from you, but will not expect it. <3<3<3 ~V

    • Thanks, Arnie.

      You had the only website on Scientology when I first was getting out in 1999-2000. I read your website over very thoroughly at the time, and it was instrumental in getting me the information I needed to get myself out of Scientology.

      I wonder what a list of all the people who have been banned from ESMB would look like?

      Probably a “Who’s Who” of Scientology criticism.

      The problem has been that loyalty to the truth, and loyalty to your friends, is not always compatible – very unfortunately. Anyone who has left the Church of Scientology and criticized them on the internet knows that.

      Thank you very much for all you have done for me and for so many others.


  2. Being criticized, insulted or mocked on the internet does not fit the Scientology definition of being fair gamed. Placing fair gamed in quotation marks still implies that is the case.

  3. Thanks for taking the time to detail this out, Miss Tia. It needed to be said.

    While I have been a daily reader of The Bunker for many years (e.g. Village Voice), I rarely comment. In fact, I rarely even read the comments anymore. When I have commented (because I felt I had something worth saying or some insight based on my 30 years as a cult member), I was ridiculed and falsely accused of being a troll. In the end, I decided it wasn’t worth contributing to.

    I take Tony O with a grain of salt. The Bunker is but one source, out of many. I do not consider myself to be a “Bunkerite”. I also recognize that this is Tony’s job. He has built a career around it. Having lots of readers, lots of comments, lots of traffic…well, you get the idea…Tony’s stirring the pot. Not making excuses or justifying.

    In addition to being a former Scientologist, it’s starting to feel like I’m becoming a former Scientology Watcher. I can go a couple days now and forget to “check the blogs”. I just smile and realize my life was just too interesting to be bothered with Scientology. Maybe we are “done” with Scn when we no longer have to read about it, hear about it, think about it, talk about it…or care about it.

    Good luck, Miss Tia. Maybe pop in every once in a while and shake things up. 🙂

  4. I’m sorry I made you upset about Shakespeare. Well not really I just got caught in the crossfire. I’m sure you understand…or I hope you do. Be Blessed.

  5. Miss Tia, I’m glad you’ve clawed your way out of the rabbit hole of The Underground Bunker Comments section.

    While I check in there almost daily, I never registered to comment on the Underground Bunker. For the most part, I appreciate Tony Ortega and his nearly daily posting about All Things Scientology. But to post there…well, Miss Tia, I think your summation is very accurate. It’s 8th grade all over again and that’s waaaay too much work.

    I’m a Declared Ex who was pretty much “with the program” for about 30 years and then steadily driftiedn away for another 10, until acknowledging to myself that I’m Totally Out. I see, have lived through, and acknowledge all the Toxic Bullshit, and keep and hold the few good bits. Scientology was what I needed in my life when it appeared but I stayed wayyy too long.

    Anyway. I hope you show up now and again on Alonzo’s blog. You are quite articulate. But it’s Ok if you don’t. I wish you well.

    And Alonzo, thanks for posting more often lately intermittent or not. I value your voice, and it has helped me over the years.

    • Jeez man, thanks!

      And when you say this:

      Scientology was what I needed in my life when it appeared but I stayed wayyy too long.

      I hear ya cluckin’! 🙂

      Exact same with me!


  6. HI Miss Tia! Long time. I’ve only looked at the Bunker sporadically in the last year, so all this is a shock…but maybe not so much. If you ever want to go for a hike, let me know!

    • Hi Anita!! Yes, long time!! I had emailed you a few times over the past few months saying ‘hi’ how ya doing; but then learned my @misstia account wouldn’t go thru to where you have your email, cuz uh?? That would be easy? No idea! I figured you were busy and didn’t realize that until I tried to email someone else with the same email place as you and they ended up phoning me asking where my email was! 🙂 I was actually gonna send you a post card sometime soon—since the email didn’t work and I lost your #, wait you’re in the book! I bet the herons have finished with their babies. I’d love to go for a hike sometime!!

      I’ll send you an email from my new email–it SHOULD go thru! Fingers crossed! 😀

  7. I have posted dissenting opinions to the Bunker frequently. I posted a defense of Alanzo’s position, I posted a request that the Bunker move away from its fascination with Mark Rathbun. I have never been “fair gamed” or threatened with a ban. Miss Tia owns the fact that she generally posted about her own life, her struggles, and little about Scientology criticism. She shared her email, and then becomes insulted when some people were genuinely worried about her?
    It is a shame that her first really honest posting was not to the Bunker, but rather to her own blog, here, and at Rathbun’s site.
    The defense against group think is the ability to speak against prevailing thought. There is a strong culture at the Bunker for serious Scientology discussion. That group tends to ignore the spats and general foolishness that break out from time to time.
    I have generally agreed with Tony’s bans of commenters. Espiando was scary sometimes, Media Lush was pointless. Captain Howdy was often a pain in the ass (although never banned). When I have disagreed (like the ban of Alanzo). I have said so. That is how comment boards self regulate.
    Miss Tia is apparently an example of how some people can be sucked in to group think, and I guess she created a little cult for herself at the Bunker. However, to characterize the Bunker based on her experience is entirely inaccurate.
    If people cannot speak their truth they own that. I am glad to hear that Miss Tia is moving on from Scientology commenting and from getting her social support from the Bunker.
    I tried to post this comment to her site, but she has closed it for fear of more love bombing.

    • Hi Eileen –

      I appreciate your comment here and value your input. I am especially grateful to you for sticking up for Cathy Tweed, the mother who lost her daughter to suicide, when very few others at the Underground Bunker were doing so.

      As in, no one.

      Am I right?

      I think it’s important to practice the social courage necessary to speak out against the groupthink and cult-like behaviors that any group of humans can exhibit – especially when they become abusive.

      That’s why I think Miss Tia’s post is so important.

      I do not think it matters when she spotted her mistake. She spotted it and spoke out. And did so eloquently and very powerfully. I am honored to give her the chance to do that here on my blog.

      By the way, on the same topic, when Carmen Llywelyn was courageously speaking out against Scientology last year, and Tony tried to discredit her experiences of abuse in Scientology – what did you think of that?

      Do you think that Tony should apologize to Carmen?

      Again, thanks for commenting here, Eileen. I’d love to hear more about what you think about this.


      • It’s regrettable, but it took me almost 3 years to spot my mistake. Thanks for your kind words on what I wrote Alanzo and for posting it here.

        It doesn’t surprise Eileen has a different bunker experience. Using Scientology as an example (quite an apt one), it’s just like that. Some people have great experiences in Scientology, others, as we know, do not. Those with the great experiences cannot relate to those who did not. They are in total disbelief from what they hear/see from those who have had the opposite experience. That’s normal and natural to feel that way.

        • Some people have great experiences in Scientology, others, as we know, do not. Those with the great experiences cannot relate to those who did not. They are in total disbelief from what they hear/see from those who have had the opposite experience. That’s normal and natural to feel that way.

          Great point, Miss Tia.

          That helps to explain why a lot of the Scn celebs, with their special treatment in Scientology, can not relate to critics of the organization even though those critics are voicing common knowledge about Scientology.

      • Hi Alanzo-
        I found my post from a month ago, will paste it here for clarity.
        My point (which I have made a number of times on the Bunker) was that too many people there assign mental health diagnoses to people they don’t know, and certainly don’t have the full story on. IRL I do assign diagnosis, and very carefully, labeling another human being is a huge responsibility.
        No mental health professional should comment on a mothers reaction to the suicide of a child, and I was surprised Ms. Bornstein was sucked in. BTW: I thought your comment about reporting her to the licensing bureau was silly. That is not something they would act upon.
        So, I was supporting your comment, not the mother.
        Same situation regarding Carmen, which I missed when it occurred, but would probably said the same thing.
        Her lawsuit threats seem silly to me, surely she knows the price of fame.
        Anyway, here is the post, it got 13 up votes, so there must be some of us who aren’t sucked into group think.
        Interestingly, I made a banhammer joke and had to clarify, a number of people thought i was serious.

        OT: I was curious about the ban hammer dropped on Alanzo a couple of days ago, so I went to his blog (first time I’ve seen it, I was impressed). I don’t know what tone or language he used, but I fully support his main point.
        Rachel Bornstein, as a licensed therapist, should not have used the terms or the tone to vilify the mother of the girl who killed herself. Bornstein’s remarks were histrionic in tone, designed to inflame and throw heat, rather than bring light to the discussion. She should think more carefully before she posts.
        Just to justify my standing in making this statement, I have been a Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner, Board certified as a psychotherapist since 1986. Also PhD full professor who teaches psych/mental health.
        Too many commenters here like to assign diagnosis to people they have never met.
        End of rant. *Running away while dodging banhammer* ETA: ;), not expecting banhammer.
        13 Edit Reply

        • Thank you for that, Eileen. I truly appreciate your comment in the Bunker.

          But when you say “Same situation regarding Carmen, which I missed when it occurred, but would probably said the same thing”, are you saying that you support Tony’s attempt to discredit her story of harassment and abuse in Scientology while she was exposing the CofS in the media?

          Please explain so I can understand your position better.

          Because I support Ex-Scientologists who get into the media and expose the abuse in Scientology – I do not try to discredit or belittle them as Tony tried to do to Carmen.

          Are you saying that you support Tony Ortega’s attempt to discredit Carmen Llywelyn?


          • Alanzo, I am saying I am not familiar with what happened, I missed the entire thread. So I can’t really comment in support or opposition. If he was applying a mental health label to her I would object.

            • All right.

              Well I wrote a blog post about it which I linked for you to read. And the picture of Tony’s comment is linked to his original comment, in context, on his blog. Did you see that? Others have missed that the picture is linked to Tony’s original comment, so maybe you did too.

              The context here is the ability of (if you’ll excuse me) a Bunkerite like yourself to speak out and freely criticize Tony Ortega. This was the major point you were making to Miss Tia – suggesting that you yourself were an example of a Bunkerite who was free to do that – and she could have been, too.

              So could you please take 2 minutes to research Tony Ortega’s attempt to discredit Carmen Llywelyn as she was speaking out as an Ex-Scientologist about Scientology abuse in the media, and freely let me know what you actually think about it?


          • Hi Alanzo,
            I did go to your blog post about Carmen Llewelyn, and read what was there. I agree with commenter Claire Swazey, this seems like a rerun. Put someone on a pedestal, then burn the pedestal.
            Tony’s comment appears impolitic, but I don’t have the context. Should he publicly apologize? Not in my opinion.
            As several commenters noted people say things, then they change. If readers think a comment is out of line they should say so and hope the person will reconsider future comments. You have made your position clear, I hope you can now let it go and allow Ortega and Llewelyn to settle their differences (or not).
            As far as I can see Tony has gone silent in the comment section about Rathbun and Llewelyn. That is what I think is appropriate.
            Just my opinion… Eileen

            • All right, thanks for putting so much time and effort into this, Eileen.

              I think you do see that there is a pattern here with Tony Ortega and some Ex-Scientologists: Running a commenting community that is too often cruel to Exes, labeling the mental health of people, biased and denigrating reporting against Mark & Monique Rathbun, and trying to discredit Carmen Llywelyn while she was speaking out about Scientology.

              These are only recent examples. I have been in contact with many other Exes who feel they have been disrespected and even undermined by Tony Ortega – back-channel off his blog, in his comment section, and in his reporting of them.

              I believe that his public apology to Carmen Llywelyn would go a long way to helping mend the fences he has broken to many people in the Ex Scientology community.

              But, in your opinion, you don’t think he should apologize to Carmen.

              All right then. Let’s forget about what you think Tony should do for a second:

              If you had said what Tony said about Carmen, would you apologize?


          • You are welcome for the time and effort Alanzo. I am responding because what I have seen of your posts in the past has seemed to show a person who likes to think thoroughly and reason closely about issues.
            Not agreeing that I see a pattern of cruelty in any of your examples of the commenting community, or of Tony’s reporting. I think that for the Internet the Bunker is an example of a community that is overall well self-correcting. Like any democracy it is messy and when the comments go off balance it can take time for the group to correct itself. However, even in the Rathbun situation (which was over the top) cooler heads did prevail and the commenters have worked to shut down troublemakers as they continue to pop up.
            The Bunker is definitely antiscientology. It is not the right place for Indies, not sure why they would go to the commenting community, or even read the blog. Certainly they can post, but should not be surprised if their fundamental beliefs are questioned. I wouldn’t come to your blog to espouse atheism, this is a place to respect spiritual questions.
            Regarding other things that you know about that are unstated, can’t comment. How do I know those are rreal, or if you are distorting the facts? The Internet is a dangerous place to trust unverifiable information. You yourself objected to the person at the Bunker who claimed to know Carmen.
            I think we can trust the fact that we never really know whom we are dealing with, but over times patterns do emerge.
            Respectfully, I also pose questions. Why should you feel that you decide who needs to issue an apology? I doubt that you know the full story of the situation between them, so How can you judge. You have spoken highly of Tony’s reporting in the past. Why such a dramatic change of heart? You appear to have undergone a fundamental change in your perspective.
            I believe Tony is a good reporter, has done important work, deserves respect for that. Also believe he makes mistakes. He has lost some great people from his commenting community because of those mistakes. I bet he knows that, if not he will learn in time.
            I believe the commenting community at the Bunker is (for the Internet) remarkable, compassionate, sometimes infuriating, and composed of mostly well meaning individuals.
            So, if your intent is to build an argument for the Bunker as a cult, with a cult leader, I can’t agree in any way.
            About your last question- I apologized to Mark Rathbun for the behavior of the Bunker when Monique cancelled her lawsuit. I also apologized for my own behavior (which was minimal, but existed). He did not acknowledge my apology, that didn’t matter, he didn’t need to. I apologized because I thought I should. Then I moved on. If I had not apologized I still would have moved on.

            • Yes. I know that you apologized to Mark Rathbun, that’s partly why I asked if you would apologize if you had said what Tony said to Carmen: I kind of already knew what your answer would be.

              First, I know that you, and many other people in the Bunker, would have never said something like that to an Ex-Scientologist like Carmen who was bravely putting herself out there to expose Scientology in the media.

              Never. And I know why you never would.

              But Tony did. And he continues to ignore it, and refuses to apologize. That’s who Tony Ortega is.

              You make a lot of great points, and I will certainly consider what you have to say. I look up to you after what you wrote in the bunker about the mental shaming of Cathy Tweed, and what you wrote on Mark Rathbun’s blog. I believe that the Bunker is a better place for Exes because of your efforts, and others in the Bunker, as well.

              I hope things continue to get better there for people who have been harmed by Scientology. I hope it becomes a place where exes who are exposing Scientology in the media at least don’t have to fear they will be cut off at the knees by the proprietor just because he thinks their “harassment” wasn’t worth his time. He can make that decision all he wants privately, but when he denigrates an Ex publicly, he’s going to hear from me, and from a lot of other Exes about it, from now on.

              With people like Tony Ortega, that’s kinda the way it has to be.


    • Eileen, I posted plenty of Scientology criticism on the bunker thru the 3 years I was there. I made sites for certain things, to have contact info for people to send information about Scientology to public officials, sending postcards to those ‘missing’ within Scientology, etc. Of course none of that matters now. It’s time to criticize me, shame me, dissect me, analyze me, and backhandedly fair game me.

      There were a few people who were genuinely concerned about me. Then there was flat out love bombing. There’s a difference and yes, I have every right to state that—and anything else I want to. The attempts by some to play stupid, ie: not even being aware I was no longer doing HowdyCon, were extremely transparent. I answered most of them though, courteously, but some kept pushing for more and more. I probably ended up giving more than they wanted.

      Gosh, how could I post something to my own blog? Do you realize what you’re saying? Why would I post such a thing on the bunker? 1 I left the bunker, whatever night Mark posted the fat shaming shoop of John Sugg and will never return–I know that’s hard for people to realize 2) I deleted my disqus a few weeks ago and won’t make another 3) Such a comment would’ve been deleted and 4) It would have created dramz on the site itself. Marty Rathbun linked to the post, I didn’t post it there. Alanzo made it a post himself. That’s wrong? Why? Why are you trying to dictate and/or control where I speak my mind? You cannot. If people want to link to my post they are more than welcome to.

      How dismissive of you to say “Media Lush was pointless.” If you don’t like someone, they’re pointless? They should be removed based on whether you like them or not? That’s what Tony did with ML. You’re falling in line there.

      I created a cult for myself?! DAFUQ?! There’s nothing I can say to that aside from DAFUQ?! I also do not need “social support” from the bunker, or any other place online, thankyouverymuch. It’s amazing how you so badly misconstrued everything I wrote. And fear of more “love bombing” on my comments? You have no idea what I’ve gotten and have been through. NONE.

      You are trying to claim you’re expressed different opinions and therefore everyone else can too on the bunker. Yes, I saw some of your posts differing. Not everyone can do that. They think they can but they cannot. I saw it far too often. Perhaps you didn’t/don’t spend as much time there as I did. I have no idea. Nor do I care. That is all behind me now.

    • It’s still taking place. I heard things were being changed, so if you were attending, please make sure you get all the proper info from the bunker.

  8. This is very powerful and I want to personally thank you for writing this. This takes major courage. I’ve never been a Bunkerite. I’m a born in, so I don’t find reading about Scientology interesting.

    Recently, I skimmed over The Bunker because of Tony’s sensationalized titles. Obviously meant to degrade & insult The Rathbuns. Something like “Marty Rathbun No Longer King of SP’s” Then I read the comments from The Bunkerites. It was disgusting. Think what you may about Marty. But Mosey was never a Scientologist. She is innocent in my eyes. The hatred, sexist comments, and pure vitriol aimed at her was abhorrent.

    I completely agree with you about the group mentality. People start acting like animals and attacking those who aren’t a part of ‘The In Crowd’ It is chickenshit bullying. A pure form of cowardice.

    I have nothing but respect for people like you Miss Tia. People who can stand above the herd and speak up when you know something is wrong. Hopefully you can continue the fight against Scientology. Just join the people who are in it for legitimate and honorable reasons. There are many of us out there. Unfortunately there is a massive amount of ‘critic worshippers’ out there. Which is why we see people worshipping Tony O. I will never understand critic worship. It’s odd to me.

    You can find me on FB if you’d like 🙂 Hope to hear more from you. Peace x

    • Thank you very much Marisa! I wish I had spoken up sooner, but it didn’t feel ‘right’ until yesterday for whatever reason. I had reached out to a few people privately in the past few months though; but had said nothing publicly. I guess I was just hoping I could fade quietly away from the bunker. The bunker group think wouldn’t let me do that with the love bombing and one person’s incessant questioning. I could have ignored that, of course, but they’d have kept it up because how COULD someone just LEAVE?! Well now they know! 🙂

      Right now I need time and space to focus on healing. I have some health issues, that were exacerbated by one person in particular, while organizing HowdyCon. I will say, I think the majority of people in the bunker are in the fight against Scientology for legitimate and honorable reasons. I firmly believe that. They don’t realize the group think they’ve become a part of though.

      I permanently deleted my FB last October—surprisingly I haven’t missed it at all! I was on FB for 6 years too! I’m on twitter, as I say, I’m a twit 😉

  9. What a brilliant piece of writing- you have just said everything I have been saying about some in the critic community for ages now. Thank you.

    • Wow, I wish I had known there were criticisms of the critic community going around!! Might have helped me leave earlier. Though, knowing how the human mind works, perhaps not. Perhaps it would have made me ‘hunker down in the bunker’ more. Thanks for your kind words Hayley!

  10. Scientology is a meat grinder, inside and out. If you want it to do something in particular for you, you’re mince meat.

    All the best in your life without scientology, Miss Tia.

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