Did Indy OSA Just Screw the Pooch? Marty Rathbun & Karen De La Carriere

Mark Rathbun and Karen De La Carriere

Mark Rathbun and Indy OSA, Back in the Day When They Were Working Shoulder to Shoulder

Back in 2010, when Karen De La Carriere (Indy OSA herself) was calling me on the phone, trying to get me to stop criticizing L Ron Hubbard and the technology of Scientology on the Internet, she would quote L Ron Hubbard over and over to me, yelling “PR is overt! Intelligence is COVERT! INTELLIGENCE BEGINS AND ENDS COVERTLY!!!

She told me about her years as an intelligence operative in the defense department. And she also told me about all the years she worked on Operations against Scientology’s “enemies” at OSA Int. I think she thought she was impressing me, but she was actually making me sick. I’d worked for OSA on one project, and that was enough to teach me what kind of person would continue to work for OSA on a second project – let alone for 5 and a half years at OSA Int.

So, with all her intelligence training, what was Karen thinking yesterday when she admitted to paying Marty Rathbun money because he was doing work that she wanted done?

If you’ll remember back in September of 2016, Marty wrote that a dispute arose between Karen De La Carriere and Marty over her attempt to get him to publish unseemly session data and OSA ethics handlings that she was involved in with Ron Miscavige, Sr. – David Miscavige’s father.

Here’s what Marty wrote at the time:

“A few years ago Karen offered me thousands of dollars to indict and convict Ron Miscavige of that very rape charge on my blog. She said that Ron had confessed the crime to her in Clearwater Florida in the eighties and she wanted to publish it. She said it was fair game for publication because even though Karen was a Scientology counsellor at the Clearwater facility at the time of the confession, Ron had admitted the crime outside the four walls of a counselling session. She said that Ron told her, “Karen, I don’t know what got into me. I lost my mind. I got rough with that girl. I raped her”, referring to the woman outside Philadelphia who had so accused him. She referred to Ron Miscavige as a predator who needed to be put away for the protection of society.’

“I told Karen that rape is a serious charge for a he-said/she-said accusation and I would not be taking the subject up. Karen pressed me with a plea that it would do all manner of harm to David Miscavige and Scientology. I informed Karen as I had on numerous occasions that that was not my purpose nor the purpose of my forum and that until she and others evolved from such hateful motivations they would continue to live the miserable existences they did. I also reiterated what I told her several times: that I never allowed editorial influence no matter how generous one was with donations to the blog.’

“This business with trying to get me to publish Ron’s confession occurred while Ron was still with Scientology’s priesthood (the Sea Organization). So, here is the lesson in ASC ethics. A confessed rapist who is a Scientologist deserves life in the penitentiary. A confessed rapist who is an anti-scientologist deserves sainthood and the best defense money can buy. If you are with ASC against Scientology, you can get away with murder (or at least violent rape). If you don’t toe the party line, you are “bought off” or worse and are fair game for attack by those who themselves have long-since sold themselves. Kettle, meet pot.”

It was quite a post when Marty wrote it, and with Karen’s new admission on Tuesday that she paid Marty money in this same time period, she makes that post remain just as relevant today. Here’s what she said in multiple fora on the Post-Scientology Internet on Tuesday:

It’s almost as if she is piling-on to this whole “revelation” from Tony Ortega that Marty Rathbun settled with David Miscavige and is now an OSA Agent, isn’t it? Like she considers Marty Rathbun “dead” or something, and this will be his final nail in the coffin. Yet the sole piece of evidence of Tony’s smug assertion that he has been making since last April that Marty is a turncoat spy is a single email that an Israeli Church attorney claims he received from Marty Rathbun with no evidence at all to back that up – and no information on how that Church lawyer got that email.

How can a document that appears in a court of law, anywhere in the world, have no proof for how it was obtained?

This is what Marty claimed back in September to have firsthand knowledge of at that time:

“Kept-man second-class Tony Ortega does accept money for publishing salacious content. That is how he makes his living.”

You know, I’ve seen enough ham-handed OSA-style Dead Agent Operations in my life in and around Scientology to be alert to when I might be seeing another one. This is where everyone in Scientology-Watching should be alert and awake to what they are being fed.

I think there’s much more to this Israeli Church attorney’s email story that is yet to be learned.

At least we now know that Marty’s story about Karen trying to get Marty to attack David Miscavige’s father, and Marty refusing, is probably true, thanks to Karen herself.

No one is saying here that these questions I’m asking have answers yet. They don’t. But they need answers, and you should not consider that anyone has answers to anything until their answers have arrived.

Always remember to keep thinking and to keep asking questions in this murky world of OSA-trained Exes such as Karen De La Carriere, Mike Rinder, Marty Rathbun and others on the Post Scientology Internet. I have learned the hard way that things are not always as their OSA-trained, overt Black PR makes them seem.

For more stories of what it is like to work directly with Indy OSA, by people who were there, be sure to read the comments section on Marty’s blog post that day. There are some wild stories there that will make you keep your eyes wide open.

And maybe a few more people will wake up to the very real possibility that we might very well be BEING PLAYED.

Go Here: RUTHLESS RAPE AND HYPOCRISY by Marty Rathbun

Next question that pops into my swinish mind: There are a lot of pictures with Indy OSA and Louis Theroux floating around on the Internet. He’s visiting her at her house in Los Feliz, standing with him at premiers in London and in LA. Yet Karen didn’t appear in the movie.

Was Karen De La Carriere an investor in Louis Theroux’s “My Scientology Movie”?

If so, how big of one? Could she have steered the direction of the movie after they got stuck without Miscavige?

Just a question.

No need to freak out.

After getting out of Scientology, we are still allowed to ask questions, aren’t we?

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36 Responses to Did Indy OSA Just Screw the Pooch? Marty Rathbun & Karen De La Carriere

  1. Virginia March 16, 2017 at 10:56 am #

    Alanzo, it would really help me if you could expand on this:

    “She told me about her years as an intelligence operative in the defense department.”

    Doing what? and in what capacity? And when exactly?

    Did she say defense department or DIA?

    Her husband Jeffrey Augustine has also claimed to have had top secret clearance related to defense, but in apparently not much of a anything basis.

    If you’d rather respond privately you know where our blog is and you can submit a comment there that I won’t publish.

    • Alanzo March 16, 2017 at 11:42 am #

      I spoke with her 2 or 3 times. That’s all she told me. “Defense” is all I remember.

  2. Chee Chalker March 17, 2017 at 7:38 pm #

    Alanzo,
    You stated “At least we now know that Marty’s story about Karen trying to get Marty to attack David Miscavige’s father, and Marty refusing, is probably true, thanks to Karen herself.”

    Why is this story ‘probably true’? Because Karen acknowledged that she gave Marty money?

    Marty claims he refused to do what Karen asked him to do (that is, reveal Ron Miscavige as a rapist). So what does Karen’s statent prove? Nothing (other than the fact it was Marty who was the ‘kept man’).

    Karen claims she gave Marty money. Karen did not say ‘I gave Marty money to publish this story’. In fact, Marty himself says he REFUSED to publish that story (because of some alleged higher moral ground)

    Karen’s statement does not prove she bribed Marty. In fact, Marty proved that himself when he said he refused to print what Karen allegedly wanted him to.

    One more thing….IIRC the charge against Ron Miscavige was for an attempted sexual assault. Why would Ron ‘confess’ to Karen that he raped someone if the charge was attempted rape? I could be misremembering the facts on that one (maybe it was an actual rape?) but I do seem to recall David Miscavige defending his father vigorously and the Co$ claimed it was a case of mistaken identity

    • Alanzo March 17, 2017 at 9:18 pm #

      Chee –

      First, as long as we are talking about Marty here, I am going to address the way I think you are seeing him. It’s a different viewpoint than you are used to, so please read what I have to say with fairness.

      When you are a Scientologist, you see the world as a Scientologist does. And then one day, the way you see things as a Scientologist collapses on you, and you no longer see things that way.

      Then you become an Ex-Scientologist. And you see things the way an Ex-Scientologist sees things. The point I want to make is that a time comes where that way of seeing the world collapses on you, too. You just no longer see things the way an Ex-Scientologist sees them any more.

      This happened to me, and I am pretty sure this is what happened to Marty, too.

      Marty used to run all kinds of projects and programs as an indie Scn, and then as an Ex-Scn. And then, he just could not do any of it any more.

      So when he started writing the posts he wrote last year, it was because he simply no longer saw things as he used to. When he and Monique dropped the court case, I believe this was a very big factor – along with the factors Monique detailed in her April filing to the court. There was no more huge CRUSADE for JUSTICE any more, for all of the Exes who have been harmed by Scientology – or even for his own past. The personal costs to himself and his family were no longer worth the disruption to their own lives. Look at the DeCrescendo case and what Scientology does to keep that dragged out. It was just not sustainable.

      But the uproar, driven by Tony Ortega and his marauding Bunkerites – like you – was really the final straw for Marty – I believe. He began showing a “Fuck All Y’all” attitude which is quite common when your Ex-Scientologist worldview collapses on you.

      You might have noticed a similar attitude occurring with me in the last year, as well.

      And so, I believe, Marty just started telling things the way he saw them. And that didn’t include upholding the whole Ex-Scientology narrative any more. Especially Tony Ortega’s narrative.

      Tony Ortega has said over and over for more than a year now that there was a settlement between Marty and David Miscavige, something where Marty benefited. At first Tony was saying he got paid money, but now he has backed off that. Now he just says “a settlement” was made. And in return for this murky and very ill-defined settlement, Marty began attacking DM’s enemies through his blog, and by dropping the court case and ensuring that Jeffrie’s law firm was without a pay day, etc. And now, by giving a Church attorney an email where Dani Lemberger seemed to be plotting to murder David Miscavige.

      I do not believe that settlement happened, and I’ve said why many many times. I do not believe that Tony Ortega has the experience to understand any of this that I’ve described above, and probably does not care to. And so the narrative that he keeps pushing about Marty Rathbun is wrong. And Tony Ortega is never going to admit that he was wrong. He’s just going to keep walking back until there is nothing left to his story but the rage that he started against Marty Rathbun in the heads of his Underground Bunkerites.

      Like you.

      So, with that out of the way, I’ll address the points you made about Karen. You must remember Karen’s training with 6 years at OSA Int, fighting the “enemies” of Scientology. And you must have worked with her, like some of the people who told stories about working with Karen on Marty’s blog post regarding this subject. Karen De La Carriere is not the sweet little old lady that she presents herself to be on the PR side of her OSA training. She is a driven, ruthless, scheming character who destroys her enemies any way she can.

      Getting at David Miscavige’s father, by knowing his session and ethics handling data, is exactly in keeping with her character as I have experienced it. And that she has now admitted to giving Marty money – in order to try to further discredit Marty – when she was silent before – reveals this side of her character, too.

      When Marty made the accusations in September, she was silent and I believe she denied giving Marty any money at the time. Although I can not be bothered to go find her quotes from the time. If you are a member of the Outer Banks, as I’m sure you are, you might remember some of her comments there creating blanket denials for what Marty was saying.

      But you probably don’t remember those because well, she’s one of your own tribal leaders.

      Right?

      Why did Karen wait until now to admit that she was giving Marty money?

      Why didn’t she address it all back then?

      • Chee Chalker March 18, 2017 at 4:43 pm #

        Contrary to your assertions, I am not a member of OBX (that’s how us cool kids refer to the Outer Banks) so I don’t know much really about the debate on whether or not Karen gave Marty money.

        The point I was trying to make was that your statement did not prove anything

        1) Karen says she gave Marty money.
        2) Marty claims Karen tried to bribe him into publishing Ron Miscavige’s ‘confessions’.
        3) Marty claims he refused to do that (we’ll just disregard the fact that Marty did in fact publish Ron’s alleged crimes when he went into detail about how he refused to do what Karen asked (then did exactly that – besmirch a man’s reputation….had he truly not wanted to do that, he could have referred to them as ‘allegations’ and not gone into details, but I digress))
        4) Karen states she gave Marty money

        Why would Karen give Marty money if he did not do as she asked?

        Marty refused, remember? So Karen’s payments seem to be just that….gifts to someone she thought was a friend

        Or maybe Marty is guilty of what he claims Tony does (publishes posts for money)

        It does seem like Marty is projecting when he calls Jeffrey Augustine a kept man.
        The question remains, beside Karen, who has been keeping Marty?

        As far as all the other stuff…..from what I have read, Tony did not say (assert, declare, etc) that Marty took a settlement. Tony entertained whether or not this was a possibility.
        I have no idea why Marty did what he did
        None of us do

        The Israeli court case was interesting though because unless Marty gave that email to someone else (who then turned around and gave it to the Co$) there are not many possibilities as to how it got in front of a judge. Remember- 1) stolen evidence cannot be entered into the court record and 2) the lawyer said he got the email from Marty

        • Alanzo March 18, 2017 at 4:54 pm #

          Shouldn’t any piece of evidence presented in court be sworn to under oath?

          As in “I Marty Rathbun gave that email to this attorney.”?

          I know you are an attorney, Chee, so why aren’t you asking for this oath or affirmation to back up this evidence? Is it really enough for the attorney to claim that he got the email from Marty without detailing how he got it, or under what circumstances – and without presenting the sworn testimony from Marty that he gave it to him?

          Are you not asking these questions because you have accepted Tony’s narrative for Marty being a turncoat spy, and you don’t want to ask these questions – even though you are trained to spot this missing information?

          I’m curious.

          Also, Tony usually reports on lawsuits against the Church – especially lawsuits that accuse, and maybe even win against, the Church for libel and slander as I think Dani’s suit was alleging. Why haven’t you asked about the rest of this omitted lawsuit? You do notice, don’t you that Tony only reported on a little snippet – just the parts of the transcript that made Marty look like a traitor.

          Where’s the rest of it? Aren;t you curious if a Scientology squirrel beat the Church on charges of libel and slander in a declare order? I would think that would be big news.

          More questions for you:

          Why do you think DM burned Marty as a spy by revealing that email? Don’t you think that he would have been way more valuable as someone who was still undercover – if he ever was undercover?

          Do you think that the only reason Marty might have given over that email was because he was doing DMs dirty work for him? Could there be other reasons that Marty turned over that email (if he did) – other than the ones that Tony Ortega is trying to make you believe?

          I’m wondering why so few Bunkerites are asking these questions. Some are, and I have detailed their questions here. But Tony’s not answering. He makes Marty look like a traitor, thus “dead agenting” him, but he’s not answering any of these other issues that are vital to make his own smear of Marty stick.

          So what do you think about all this, counselor? 🙂

          • Chee Chalker March 19, 2017 at 2:04 pm #

            Hi again Alanzo,
            First off, rules of evidence vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. In the US, the federal courts have their own rules and rules also vary from state to state (not wildly, but there are some distinctions).

            As you know, the Lemberger case was heard in Israel. I have no idea whether or not there would be a requirement for someone to swear to the authenticity of something admitted into evidence.
            What I am fairly confident of is that no justice system would allow stolen materials to be entered. Think of the chaos that would result if that were the case….that would almost be encouraging people to steal (to hack, etc).

            So that (no stolen ‘evidence’ ) and the fact that the attorney said he received the materials from Marty leads me to believe just that- that he received the materials from Marty.
            Of course, the translation may have not been 100% accurate, so who knows what the attorney meant by that comment. It could well very be that Marty forwarded the email to someone else and that 3rd party turned it over to the Co$.

            As far as Tony’s reporting, the reason I know he has not come out and said definitively that ‘Marty took a under the table settlement’ is because 1) I have not read that (from Tony) and 2) if Tony did do something like that Marty could sue him for slander/libel.

            You make important points and I agree that it is easy to get caught up in the ‘group think’. But sometimes you also have to admit when it walks like a duck and talks
            like a duck, it’s a duck. And the one person who could clear all this up refuses to do so. And that person also goes out of his way to insult and belittle people who ask questions. That is not normal behavior. That is guilty behavior or behavior of someone under duress or a number of other possibilities.

            What kind of continues to surprise me is so much of what Marty says and does can be refuted by his own prior words and actions. For example, calling Jeffrey Augustine a ‘kept man’ but then we learn that it was Marty who accepted money from Karen.
            (If this is not true, Marty should come
            out and say it. If it is true, I’m sure Karen has the receipts).
            Saying Miscavige NEVER spoke to PIs, when in his own book he recounts an occasion when Miscavige did just that.
            It’s kind of like Miscavige continuing to lie about Scientology expansion and expecting everyone to believe it just because he says so. Or those idiot Elfmans saying Narconon has a 70% success rate just because someone told them to.

            As far as the rest of what happened in the Lembeger case, IIRC correctly Tony said it was in the settlement stage and therefore the Lembegera could not share any details. That is a fairly common event in the world of the Co$ (and most settled lawsuits).

            I think you are confusing speculation with fact. Tony has speculated on Marty’s behavior ….it does seem as though Marty is operating more like a Miscavige ally than a detractor these days. If you can give me
            a direct quote where Tony says ‘Marty is definitely OSA’ then I will agree with you

            I still don’t understand why you think Karen acknowledging she supported Marty financially is evidence that Karen wanted Marty to publish allegations against Ron Miscavige Sr.
            If Marty refused and Karen still paid Marty was does that prove? The only thing I think it proves is that Marty was the ‘kept man’

          • Alanzo March 19, 2017 at 3:43 pm #

            Excellent response, Chee. I appreciate your willingness to put some effort into spelling it out and giving us your perspective and your expertise.

            You said:

            I think you are confusing speculation with fact. Tony has speculated on Marty’s behavior ….

            Tony said:

            …”those who speculated that Rathbun had secretly settled will be feeling justifiably smug today”.

            – Tony Ortega

            I understand that you may not see it that Tony made clearcut, declarative statements – this one and others – that Marty Rathbun had secretly settled with DM, but he did.

            So, Chee, I really hope that you return to my blog and challenge me with your best reasoning, as you have displayed here today. It’s when we’re talking about trashing the mental states of mothers whose daughters have just committed suicide that I really get short and snippy.

            I’m sorry if I dragged that past time into this new interaction with you.

            Thanks for your contribution to AlanzosBlog.

            Alanzo

          • Virginia March 20, 2017 at 9:29 pm #

            Well, and then there’s the fact that on the day in question, that just happened to coincide with the arrival of Monique Yingling, Yaeger etc. Could it be that they handed the email to this Israeli attorney and TOLD him that they got it from Marty Rathbun?

            Let’s not miss that rather interesting addition of personnel on the case.

            Ortega wrote:

            “She then rescheduled Dani’s remaining testimony and cross-examination for February 20.

            It was during Dani’s cross-examination in the Feb 20 hearing that Scientology’s local attorney, Mattan Ben Shaul, told Dani that he had contacted former church official Mark “Marty” Rathbun, who had turned over a damaging email that Dani sent Rathbun in 2013, which we wrote about earlier. After the cross-examination of Dani was over, Judge Levhar-Sharon asked if the church had brought representatives, as she requested. In the courtroom, two of Scientology’s American attorneys were present — Eric Lieberman and William Walsh — and they then brought in two more of Scientology’s familiar faces — attorney Monique Yingling and Sea Org official Marc Yager. ”
            http://tonyortega.org/2017/03/20/judge-testimony-about-scientologys-abuses-so-bad-it-should-get-kicked-out-of-the-country/#more-38608

            The timing there, and the ever so by the way…here’s an email…and throwing Marty under the bus at that point, stinks to high heaven to me.

          • Virginia March 20, 2017 at 9:59 pm #

            Now see…that right there:

            “And the one person who could clear all this up refuses to do so. And that person also goes out of his way to insult and belittle people who ask questions. That is not normal behavior. That is guilty behavior or behavior of someone under duress or a number of other possibilities.”

            Is exactly what I pointed out on the other post, about people thinking they have the right to COMPEL an answer, and that if the person doesn’t ergo that means….insert insult.

            Let’s not overlook that the way these questions are often framed noone in their right mind would WANT to answer, and the person wouldn’t be out of line in having a fiery response to such.

            For example?

            Marty, Did you go back to Scientology?
            Marty – (I secretly think you made a deal but I don’t want you to know that so I’m going to pretend to ask a “logical” question and hope you don’t notice anything….) but would you mind answering WHY the suit was dropped? Because, you know, it couldn’t possibly be what was said in the court documents….

            Who the hell would want to answer crap like that? Marty’s sub-understanding inherent in the “no answer” to most people on this topic is, in essence, a pretty clear answer.

            Even more clear is that these same most people do seem to get that, and merely don’t LIKE that he isn’t dancing around to their tune and snapping to attention every time someone asks him a question.

            It’s almost as if there is a kind of gang bang sec-checking effort/attitude towards Marty – sans e-meter.

            I don’t like it.

          • Alanzo March 19, 2017 at 3:52 pm #

            As for whether Karen requested of Marty exactly what Marty said she requested with regard to Ron Miscavige Snr?

            Since Karen has now admitted to giving Marty money during this time period for what he was doing on his blog, I said that this was “probably true”.

            I still think that.

          • Virginia March 20, 2017 at 9:30 pm #

            I would tend to agree.

          • Virginia March 20, 2017 at 10:13 pm #

            It does not prove that Marty WAS the ‘kept man’. It proves that Karen wants Marty to be PERCEIVED as being the ‘kept man’ .

            Scientology threw Marty under the bus in court, followed shortly by Karen and her pet media man throwing Marty under the bus all over the internet.

            Perhaps people need to ask why that is.

          • Valkov May 28, 2017 at 8:46 pm #

            And that she tried to turn him into a “kept man”.

  3. Andrea Garner March 20, 2017 at 1:07 pm #

    In answer to your question, before deciding that Marty Rathbun would be the main focus of the film, Louis Theroux and the production team interviewed several people, including Karen and Tony Ortega, neither of whose interviews appeared in the final cut but both of whom were invited to the UK/US premieres as a gesture of thanks.

    I do wish you weren’t so suspicious, Alanzo; you must give yourself a headache 🙂

    • Alanzo March 20, 2017 at 2:50 pm #

      Hi Andrea!!

      As for me being suspicious, I realized a long time ago that anyone who would work for OSA for more than a few weeks is definitely someone to watch. Did you read Gerhard Waterkemp’s write up of his time working for Karen?

      Or Sam Freeman’s?

      You really can’t ask enough questions, in my opinion, about KDLC.

      And thanks for your answer, Andrea. You should know that I do admire you from afar.

      Alanzo

      • Virginia March 20, 2017 at 9:34 pm #

        What the hell IS her real name, anyway? That can’t be it. She must actually legally be something Augustine, since she’s married to Jeff, right?

        • Claire Swazey May 28, 2017 at 10:34 pm #

          Her name is Karen DelaCarriere. She likely didn’t take his name. Heck, my sister in law didn’t take her husband’s name, either.

      • Virginia March 20, 2017 at 9:38 pm #

        I hope you never stop looking. And it’s not being “suspicious” to observe more closely things that don’t make sense. I think that’s just someone’s PC (politically correct) way of calling you paranoid, aka crazy.

      • Claire Swazey May 28, 2017 at 10:33 pm #

        Sam Freeman and a couple others at Ministry of Ducks have been complaining about Karen for petty reasons.

        Karen probably was quite party line when she was in CofS and subsequently hard to work with. Many of us were. It’s a soul and integrity destroying cult. I feel she’s been quite decent after she got out. I’m sure she and I would not agree on everything but that’s life.

        • Alanzo May 29, 2017 at 8:25 am #

          Karen was OSA when she was in and Indy OSA since she’s gotten out. I do not think that is “quite decent”.

  4. Virginia McClaughry May 22, 2017 at 6:11 pm #

    Scott Gordon is getting Fair Gamed/interrogated at ESMB for talking about this post of yours.

    https://mikemcclaughry.wordpress.com/2017/05/22/karen-de-le-carriere-brags-about-her-years-as-intelligence-operative-in-the-defense-department/

    • Alanzo May 22, 2017 at 8:08 pm #

      Very interesting.

      • Virginia McClaughry May 23, 2017 at 1:00 am #

        Karen has now personally attacked you as a mental case, a liar and that in your delusion you manufactured that this conversation with her happened.

        “I had to make a comment on Alanzo.
        I have come to the conclusion that Alanzo is a mental case.
        The constant flip-flopping of his views make this evident.
        Example: he alternately Loves or Hates Mike Rinder
        He lies, lies, lies and *Manufactures* in his delusion as in his post on me.
        Severe psychological issues deserve compassion.
        I feel compassion for Alanzo.”

        http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?43919-to-Watchful-navigator-re-Your-recent-coming-back-on-esmb&p=1142125&viewfull=1#post1142125

        • Alanzo May 23, 2017 at 7:05 am #

          LOL! Spoken like a true Class 12 auditor who worked for OSA Int destroying people for 5 and a half years!

          1. She knows I’m not lying. She told me about her intelligence career herself. Otherwise, I would have no idea of it.

          2. “Flip-flopping” is a term that Karen and Michelle Sterling started using on me last year when I began exposing the cruelty at the Underground Bunker. It is only Karen’s latest attempt to discredit me in a long line of attempts since 2010 when she first started calling me and realized that I was not going to cooperate with her lying and manipulation.

          As for “flip-flopping” – I am moving away from being an Anti/Ex Scientologist, just as I moved away from being a Scientologist. That is not flip flopping. The use of this term was never an attempt to accurately describe anything. If I was flip flopping, I would be a Scientologist again. And I am certainly not.

          3. Mike Rinder knows very well that while I admire what he has accomplished as a critic since leaving the church, I have also consistently tried to get him to release more information about what he did to critics as the head of OSA. In the hero worship of Mike Rinder, so many other critics have seemed to have forgotten this. I haven’t. I have shown that he has ignored and even lied about his involvement in fair gaming critics continually since he emerged on the Internet in 2009. And since getting himself on TV and being paid handsomely now for being a Scientology critic himself, I have made one last push to get him to release what he has done to critics as the head of OSA. That has nothing to do with “love and hate”, as Karen’s Indy OSA line on me tries to cover up. Karen was also involved in fair gaming critics when she worked at OSA Int for 5.5 years, but no one seems to ask her anything about that at ESMB. Except for Scott Gordon.

          Well done, Scott!

          4. I have to think that the people on ESMB are getting tired of Karen’s hypocrisy and ham-handed OSA style manipulation. How and why they continue to swallow this is their problem and certainly not mine.

          I have never put up with Karen’s Indy OSA manipulation and her bunny boiler “compassion”.

          This has always been Karen’s actual problem with Alanzo.

          • Doloras LaPicho May 23, 2017 at 7:30 pm #

            “Flip-flopping” is the word which Tony likes to apply to Marty, isn’t it? Like there could be no explanation about why he would want to give up fist-fighting David Miscavige unless he’s been “turned”?

          • Alanzo May 23, 2017 at 7:37 pm #

            Wasn’t it first used on John Kerry by Karl Rove, Bush’s Brain, in the 2004 election?

            Didn’t they try to portray Kerry as a “flip-flopper” on domestic issues such as health care?

          • Claire M Swazey May 23, 2017 at 9:38 pm #

            Having recently seen Marty in My Scientology Movie, I’m now far more sympathetic to his recent choices and to him.

            He was right.

    • Claire Swazey May 22, 2017 at 10:52 pm #

      That’s because he’s being quite scathing to the point of extreme conjecture and libel. I just read a bunch of FB posts of his just dredging up anything he can. It’s like reading a CofS screed.

      It’s just a damn shame. There are factions within factions and spinoffs. I see good people slamming other good people. The battle lines are drawn and redrawn again and again.

      • Virginia McClaughry May 22, 2017 at 11:17 pm #

        I disagree.

        What is a damn shame is watching people try to take the middle road on something that isn’t and should never be characterized as such.

        • Claire M Swazey May 23, 2017 at 9:36 pm #

          i think disharmony is non optimum. And there’s reams of LRH and Buddhism that says the same thing. Our world is in deep trouble because of conflicts and pain. And it always will be until we as beings can transcend that.

          I definitely decry anything that’s bad and have taken many moral and ethical stances. If someone tried to hurt my family or friends or me, I’d be taking action so fast one’s head would spin. Because it would be right and necessary.

          It’s not a middle road to view and evaluate individual situations as they arise.

          • Virginia McClaughry May 24, 2017 at 1:02 am #

            “It’s not a middle road to view and evaluate individual situations as they arise.”

            No, definitely not, Claire. I agree.

            I really appreciated what you shared in your second paragraph above. Thank you so much for doing that.

          • Claire M Swazey May 24, 2017 at 1:14 pm #

            My pleasure!!

    • Virginia McClaughry May 23, 2017 at 2:39 am #

      Alanzo –

      They disappeared the whole thread at around 1am PST, (meaning they put it where non-users can’t see it). Karen’s post was at about 10pm last night.

  5. Virginia McClaughry May 23, 2017 at 1:03 am #

    And then there’s this – Mike McClaughry’s experience with a producer from the Leah Remini show last month. Probably another thing driving Karen’s meltdown right now.

    https://mikemcclaughry.wordpress.com/2017/05/22/the-leah-remini-scientology-show-an-exercise-in-controlled-opposition/

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