Is Leah preparing to jump the shark?
After two missed episodes in the middle of a season, leaving the A&E Network’s Tuesday night 8pm slot with re-runs 2 weeks in a row, Aftermath returns with what appears to be more acting than ever. Leah’s hamming acting here actually does a disservice to the people she is interviewing as they tell their stories of abuse in Scientology.
Hopefully there will be something in this Tuesday night’s episode that will cause the federal investigation that Leah said she wanted at the beginning of Season 2.
And before you say that Alanzo is simply heartless and cruel to the people who have been harmed by Scientology, you should understand that I have talked to many Ex-Scientologists and listened to their stories of abuse as a critic of Scientology over the last 18 years. NONE of them act like they act on Leah’s show.
Some of the Scientology atrocity stories are bad, and you feel bad for them and you want justice. But because most all of these things happened years and years ago, rarely have I ever seen anyone cry. They have usually repeated these stories to others on the Internet over and over, and everyone has thanked them and told them how bad they feel for them, and told them how brave they are, and these victims of abuse have pretty much come to terms with what happened to them and largely moved on – at least as much as anyone can.
But when they get on Leah’s show, they seem to really need to milk it. And they cry and they get bewildered and then Leah cries and they all hug and blame the brainwashing.
How many times will we be repeating this pattern on Scientology and the Aftermath before people start tuning out, and we miss the chance for real reform?
Where is the illegal or criminal activity that will bring about the federal investigation?
What did the attorneys say at the end of Season 1?
How long does Leah expect to emotionally manipulate people into hating Snidely Scientologist with all this maudlin melodrama?
Again, I am not minimizing anyone’s experiences of abuse. I am raising the question of whether this is an effective way to get a federal investigation, or to do anything other than make people hate Scientologists – including the majority of Scientologists who have never, and would never, abuse anyone.
For Season 2, by calling for a federal investigation and then delivering nothing that the government can do anything about, Leah Remini has set the expectation at a legal standard of criminal activity yet delivered only incidents of moral failure and a lack of compassion.
And her viewership is crashing.
Tony Ortega reports that the RPF was disbanded 4 years ago. Coerced abortions were also abandoned years ago. So what are we really accomplishing here with this show besides Leah getting her sitcom career started up again and winning an Emmy?
That is not a rhetorical question. I really want to know what people think is being accomplished to actually stop the abuses inside Scientology by this show because a federal investigation, so far, is never going to happen with what Leah is delivering here.
So if there is no federal investigation – and no Miscavige Perp Walk – then what?
If Mike and Leah want to present themselves on a national television show then I think they should be open to criticism and even satire. Everything presented on the Aftermath so far has been so horrific that it tends to stifle logical criticism. Criticize the show and you can be charged with condoning abuse and all the other horrors presented as current and endemic.
It’s like CCHR reporting about the abuses of Psychiatry, but will never help one single mentally Ill person as they are illegal pc’s.
Its exactly the same PR tech applied 100%, this is what Mike was doing for 30 years and what he learned and now he is just on the opposite, still doing what he learned.
Did Leah and Mike reunite one single family that was victim of disconnection ?
Did they they help one single ex S:O come back onto his feet ?
What help do they offer to their victims they are portraying ?
There are no real perspective or solutions in their reporting. He name his blog “Something can be done about it”..What did he really do about It ? I don’t exactly know how Marty and he worked together to get all those reports to the media. But I think in those times Mike did a lot that media didn’t fear anymore to report about Scientology..No more abortions, no more hole, no more RPF..What will come next? No more disconnection?
He is quite different then Marty, who helped 1000ds of people with his blog to decompress, but what Marty does now, I don’t know. Probably he realized that people have a free will, can think and decide for themselves, even if their decision are against reason. He repeated many times that he didn’t want to become a fucking leader of anything, even when people were begging for his leadership.
So others jumped in and took the leadership and can be cheered at, and be given money to.
Also the ex scientologist cheering at those leaders are a minority of the 100 000ds that left in 40-50 years and just continued their life and never looked back…
As chancellor Merkel repeated over and over in the last years:
” When it comes to human dignity, we cannot make compromises”
Marty, Mike, David and all those other people are human beings and I respect them that they have their own reasons and motives for their actions, and they have any right of the world for their actions as long as they don’t do illegal things. This is the basis that humanity is build upon and evolving with, and perhaps one day there will be dialogs or perhaps they are already happening.
It’s just not anymore my game, whatever side I’m looking at.
In the 14 century the catholic church had all power over Europa, but was then dismantled by reason alone and lost most of its power and wealth. Man will always with reason fight any dictatorial tendencies of people or politics, but this takes a lot of time and education of people. The USA failed to educate their people in the last 40 years by making education so expensive…That such an Idiot as Trump is their President now. On the other hand other countries are gaining ground by educating their people.
The main problems discussed here are the actions of people that lack an education and a good childhood, free of indoctrination of any kind.
So lets go around and educate people about Human Dignity,Reason, Dialogs and Compromises.
It seems to me that they are increasingly considering all Scientologists as “the enemy”.
The RPF was disbanded? So what do the Church hierarchy do to recalcitrant SeaOrg members now?
Threaten them with lower level jobs, like scrubbing pots and pans, or declare.
The RPF was always a clear legal vulnerability to the Church. Theoretically at least, an SO member could wake up and go straight to the police before the statute of limitations ran out on false imprisonment, assault, and all kinds of other potential criminal charges.
That it took Tony Ortega 4 years to report this is pretty interesting too. Just like most ExSO take years to wake up and realize what’s been going on, it might take Tony the same amount of time to let the facts work through his belief system, as well.
Maybe bias causes comm lag.
That’s a question for Tony O – “When were you aware that the RPF was disbanded?”
If he says four years ago, he’s fucked.
If he says a week ago, he’s fucked. Not a very good “reporter” given that the event happened years ago, and numerous SO members have left since and have talked to Tony.
Yes. But continuing the RPF years after Miscavige did was a great way to whip up the hysteria among Exes and never-ins, and to recruit more eyeballs to his blog.
It’s always interesting to note that, because of the information control in Scientology, the average Church of Scientologist knows less about Scientology than an Ex-Scientologist does.
Because of the information control in Anti-Scientology, sometimes the same could be said about Anti’s. This is especially true if they listen to Tony Ortega too much without questioning him, and never seek alternative views on Scientology besides the anti-cult movement’s hysterical views.
This whole post has been something like this “no offense but you ass is fat”
In one line you mock the people that have been abused, then in the next you assure us that you are not saying there hasn’t been abuse.
Do you actually know anyone who is an Ex-Scientologist, Allison?
Are you familiar with the Karpman Drama Triangle?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle
Alanzo it seems you try so hard to straddle the fence. Everyone should be able to agree at this point that Scientology hurts people in many different ways. I have seen you make the argument that it’s all David mascavige. He does not operate in a vacuum at this point people want their stories heard and the stories should be heard so others don’t make the same mistake. Some things are black and white kids working 60 a week, people forced to get abortions ,children being molested those things are bad immoral and just plain wrong.
As far as your question about it I know any ex scientologists the answer is no. My dad was brought up a Johovah Witness and I have found it to be a similar thing and just as destructive and my dad agrees.
All right. I didn’t know that about you. Thank you for letting me know. You should have some interesting perspectives about Scientology and JWs. I’d be interested to hear those.
If what you mean by “straddle the fence” is to try to look at Scientology in a less partisan way, you are correct. I try hard to do that every day. I’ve spent too many years looking at Scientology in a black and white way. First, as a Scientologist, I took a black and white view from a Scientologist’s perspective. Then, I did the same thing as an anti-Scientologist for almost as long. Both were mistakes. It was not good for me to see Scientology and to think about it in such a black and white way.
As an Ex, that kind of partisan viewpoint blocks your ability to understand your experiences in Scientology deeply enough to get any value out of them. They’re either “ALL GOOD” (as a Scientologist), or they’re ALL BAD as an anti-Scientologist. Dropping both those partisan viewpoints helps you to mine the truth about Scientology on both sides. Only then can you get enough information from the proper perspectives to “recover”, or to “move on”, or to “heal”, or whatever you are trying to do as an Ex after Scientology.
I have discovered that biased, partisan thinking about Scientology is the worst thing ever for an Ex.
That’s not quite what I’ve been saying, or ever said. All David Miscavige’s abuse comes directly out of L Ron Hubbard’s teachings. That has always been my position since leaving and “waking up” as a partisan Scientologist.
Yes, they are. And as an Ex, they are the things that make your blood boil. Every time you think about them, or are reminded, your blood boils again about it. But because of the long, interminable, “no-justice” nature of Scientology-watching, you have to start questioning yourself and how you are viewing things. You can’t walk around with your blood boiling for decades. You have to at least question things enough to verify if you are boiling your blood for legitimate reasons.
And so when you put specific dates and times, and apply critical thinking to all those things you listed above, you begin to be less emotionally manipulated by the hysteria that comes from black and white thinking – either for or against Scientology. You begin to put things into their proper perspective – both the good and the bad.
And then your average blood temperature starts to moderate. This is a very good process for any Ex to engage in. There is a tremendous amount of wisdom to gained by any Ex who to takes a less partisan, black and white, view of Scientology.
Things clear up. What is actually important comes into view.
All of the things you listed above must be exposed about Scientology. The stories must be used to warn the public.
But after watching this for 18 years, and seeing NO criminal charges filed since the late 70’s, you need to take that into consideration. It’s a big fact, and you should let it inform your opinions about Scientology. In fact there are a lot of big facts like that about Scientology that you can not assimilate if you take too partisan a view of it.
I like Allison, she makes her points in a direct and honest way.
You like her because she challenges the Sinless Man(R). 🙂
So true…
“But after watching this for 18 years, and seeing NO criminal charges filed since the late 70’s, you need to take that into consideration. It’s a big fact, and you should let it inform your opinions about Scientology. In fact there are a lot of big facts like that about Scientology that you can not assimilate if you take too partisan a view of it.”
I am not sure what you mean by partisan, if you mean one side or the other, I would say it is partisan just as I said the things happening in Scientology are wrong.
The fact that they haven’t been prosecuted is meaningless, look how long it took for priests to be prosecuted , and shouldn’t matter anyway you know that it is wrong. I
Your blood should boil for these people being abused. When your blood boils you get things done.
But like I said, you have to take care that your blood is boiling for legitimate reasons. Often the abuse stories coming out of Scientology are not legitimate reasons to make your blood boil. Sometimes they are.
So you have to take care to discern the difference.
For instance, Tony Ortega reports that the RPF has been disbanded and it was disbanded 4 years ago.
That means that your blood has been boiling for an illegitimate reason for the last 4 years. You need the fact that the RPF is no longer operational to inform your blood temperature levels.
It’s not right, nor is it healthy, for an Ex to put himself through all that for so long when it wasn’t even going on any more. Knowing that, he could have allowed himself a little lower blood temperature – right?
To cool out. To step back a little and to gain some perspective.
This is very important. A state of constant hysteria over Scientology is incredibly toxic for an Ex.
And one more thing, I don’t think without leah’s show anyone except ex scientologists would know of the abuses going one in the organization. Most people would just think it was a wacky group who thought they where possessed by aliens. I would not be surprised in the least to at a minimum some criminal investigations to start.
That’s what I want – criminal investigations.
That’s why I want Leah and Mike to use all their resources and OSA insider knowledge to get the criminal information necessary to get those criminal investigations going – just like Leah promised at the beginning of this season.
Otherwise, if they can find no criminal information, we need to know that, too. It’s no good stringing out the hysteria by holding back vital facts for her viewers to think with. That would be highly manipulative.
This isn’t a sitcom like “King of Queens”. It is a reality-based TV show that deals with real peoples’ lives. So Leah has a responsibility to report the truth of what she finds – either good or bad for Scientology.
Many people’s lives – on both sides of the fence – are affected by what she is saying on Scientology and the Aftermath.
What criminal activity do we know for sure is currently going on?
For example, are you or Mike Rinder, Tony Ortega, Chris Shelton or Aaron Smith-Levin being fair gamed in any way?
As for disconnection, I don’t think it’s actually illegal but a matter of religious practice as with other religions.
I would say the most we can hope for with Leah’s TV show is that it will put pressure on the CoS to make changes for PR purposes.
It’s just too bad that it also has to smear the whole group and the practice of Scientoogy itself. That’s what I call “criminal.”
Miraildi we have heard from several different people on leah’s show of child abuse and molestation. Those are crimes.
Yes they are crimes, and they should be prosecuted.
But are they crimes that the Church of Scientology is responsible for, or the individuals who committed them?
And if we are looking to put hard legal pressure on DM, then we need crimes for which we can ensnare the church in their official capacity. That’s what we need.
So far, if Leah had been able to present something like that, then we would have seen some charges, right?
All these things are important to examine with a level head, and not with black and white thinking.
Yes, of course. But those crimes took place half a dozen or more years ago. There aren’t even any children to abuse now, as they aren’t allowed and haven’t been for years.
I mean children aren’t allowed in the Sea Org. And as Alanzo basically pointed out, any organization can have members who commit crimes, but it doesn’t necessarily involve the organization itself.
Right orginizations can foster an environment for those things to florish. Organizations can hide crimes and criminals like the Catholic church did. If that is or was haopening they should be held accountable.
Completely agreed.
And Tony reported that in the case of the sexual molestation episode, of Scientology and the Aftermath, that the LAPD was unable to do anything with the information.
And this is what I’m saying. We can’t just have moral failures and instances of a lack of compassion if we are going to get the federal investigation that Leah says she wants, and which we all want.
We need real crimes.
And if there are none to be found – then they need to say this.
And about Sea Org children being forced to work 60 hours a week, totally untrue. There used to be something called the Cadet Org which if you search around on Google you’ll find plenty of info about it. There are a lot of errors (the Wikipedia article is mostly crap written by a zealous anti-scn guy called Prioryman who basically gets away with his BS because he’s best friends with a ton of ikipedia admins and arbitrators) but its one of those areas where not a lot of verifiable evidence exists to back up the most severe allegations.
The way it was supposed to work was kids would go to grade school, not necessarily a Scientologist school mind you, and then after school they go to whichever org they were assigned to for study, which typically average between 2-6 hours a day depending on circumstances at whatever org they were at. After study, they’d do 2-4 hours of various light menial chores like dusting and vacuuming course rooms, helping galley crew wash dishes, etc. And lights out to bed after that.
Didn’t quote work out that way, the situation in the 1970s and 1980s was horrible. I mean really very bad, but it wasn’t because of LRH and Miscavige wasn’t running things back then. Why there were so many abuses during that period was because there was no real management the way there is now. Scientology was kind of an anarchy where the left hand didn’t know what the right hand was doing. Even Hubbard was out of the loop because no one ever dared trying to give him any bad news because he was notorious for yelling at people and just about every old-timer I’ve known who worked with Hubbard attested to how loud the man could scream.
He wasn’t beating anyone up or physically assaulting anyone, mind you. LRH didn’t work that way. He was more Howard Hughes and Joseph McCarthy in his tactics. So people around him were terrified of him which made them total ass-kissing sycophants. Like the way Khrushchev deified and idolised Stalin while he was alive, and he would violently persecute anyone who even remotely criticised LRH. The moment Stalin was proclaimed dead, Krushchev was the first one to start denouncing and cursing Stalin in private and reversing most of Stalin’s policies, which ironically were mostly the brainchild of Krushchev, who himself was the architect of Stalinist policy.
David Miscavige is kind of like Krushchev, but instead of denouncnig LRH he just changes everything around and justifies his actions based on LRH policy that doesn’t exist. Like fundraisers. Say what you will about LRH but he was adamantly opposed to fundraisers. In all the years he ran Scientology, he never once held any fundraisers or accepted donations for the sake of accepting them. LRH was a fanatic when it came to “exchange”, which means that you don’t give something for nothing. To give, you must also get. There are actual LRH policy letters which explicitly forbid fundraising. He would make fun of Christian churches that would host bingo games and fundraisers at race tracks. He hated that type of thing.
Hubbard also was opposed to raising the cost of Scientology services beyond what would be affordable to the common working person. It wasn’t until the early 1970s when Nixon dropped the gold standard and converted the US dollar into a fiat currency — look up “Nixon shock” on Wikipedia. Back then Scientology was more or less subsidised by Hubbard’s royalties from book sales. None of the churches or the Sea Org vessels were fancy or luxurious and there wasn’t enough money in Scientology to undertake any major remodeling or refurbishing jobs. Most churches and all the Sea Org ships were run down and not at all attractive. Even Celebrity Centre, founded in 1969 by Yvonne Gilham, was not the kind of place you’d find any A-list or even B or C list celebrity hanging out at. Scientology was very bohemian and hipster in that regard.
Prices were steadily raised through the 1970s but it was Miscavige who in 1982 not only raised prices to unheard of levels and made Scientology unaffordable to most, but he also initiated fundraisers, beginning in 1984 with the founding of the International Association of Scientologists. This wasn’t done out of greed, but because Scientology was on the verge of bankruptcy and near oblivion as a result of the 1978-1980 scandals and criminal abuses of the Guardian Office, led by Mary Sue Hubbard and which functioned as the de facto international management of Scientology.
What does any of this have to do with the allegations you are making against Scientology? Everything! When you have a Byzantine regime where there is no effective central management and internal corruption where the left hand has not only no idea what the right hand is up to, but doesn’t even know that the right hand even exists and controls everything, then you begin to realise how and why all the abuses were able to take place and why Miscavige is far guiltier than Hubbard for all the problems facing Scientology since the 1980s.
Unlike Hubbard, nothing is held back from Miscavige. He personally keeps abreast of EVERYTHING that happens in Scientology and outside of it. He has read all the books, all the articles, everything. He reads all the blogs, and he reads this one, just as reads Tony Ortega, even the comments. He works very hard at not being unaware, but there are a lot of things that he doesn’t find out about until its too late, and when that happens, a whole bunch of SO workers get shitcanned.
People leaving Int in recent years have all been quite clear about something that no one disputes: Int is becoming more and more of a ghost town and it appears that Miscavige’s plan is to revert it back to being solely dedicated to Golden Era Productions, which has also been split into two additional properties: Mad Hatter Studios in Los Feliz area of Hollywood which is where most if not all of the Gold sound and audio unit have been sent. and the former KCET studios, which is where most of the video crew are now at and this is where Miscavige wants to establish a Scientology equivalent of Trinity Broadcasting and other evangelical Christian cable and satellite channels.
So this thing with children in the Sea Org, this is something Miscavige to his credit has gone out of his way to correct. Like I said, Miscavige is not a god, just as LRH wasn’t a god. Shit happens that they don’t know about it and don’t find out about until after allegations are made in the press or on a blog.
Why do you think Miscavige took almost all the original Int execs off post and relegated them to either sitting behind (or under, as has happened) a desk all day or demoted to duties like mowing the lawn and sleeping in a goddamn tool shed?
And BTW, this type of humiliating punishments, which probably aren’t illegal but certainly don’t enhance Scientology’s image, are done voluntarily. Rathbun, for instance, refused and literally told Miscavige “F U” to his face and walked out of Scientology for the last time (he had left a couple times before, but Miscavige was able to convince him to return). The whole absurd Squirrel Busters insanity was a bizarre attempt to instigate a nervous breakdown in Marty Rathbun which would compel him to crawl back to Miscavige begging on his knees.
Didn’t work.
But Mike Rinder and most of the others stayed put on their own accord and voluntarily allowed themselves to be subjected to Miscavige’s various humiliations until 2007, when he left and then after the whole Anonymous thing started, a whole bunch of others started leaving.
And you know what? They didn’t even have to “escape.” All they had to do was walk right out the front door.
Same thing with the EPF and RPF. I can’t count how many times I saw EPF and RPF members get fed up for one reason or another and go AWOL right then and there. The largest RPFs, which were at PAC Base in L.A. and Flag in Clearwater, if you got fed up and wanted to leave, you just had to walk out the door. You were not locked inside and no one would try to physically restrain you, and those who did try to physically prevent someone from leaving would get demoted or offloaded because that can be prosecuted in a court of law as assault even kidnapping, which is a federal offense.
Especially in L.A. and Clearwater, there was always and still remains zero tolerance for doing anything illegal. One of Miscavige’s major successes is maintaining excellent relations with local law enforcement and even the Feds. They don’t even try to hide anything from them when they do get visited by law enforcement because in the past, that has backfired in the worst possible way.
So if allegations of child rape, sexual assault, human trafficking, “forced” abortions and children working 40-60 hours a week are true, there is NO possible way for any org to hide or cover that up without law enforcement noticing that. Miscavige knows that his people are too incompetent to get away with anything illegal, and he’s not an idiot when it comes to legal matters.
I’d like to see evidence where Miscavige even approved of coerced abortions. Every married couple I knew while working at PAC, CC, HGB and ABLE, when they got pregnant, ALL of them were ordered to accept a mandatory leave of absence. They weren’t even a choice, and this goes back to years before the allegations surfaced. I have never seen any policy that would even justify abortion, and per LRH policy, abortion is an existential crime and not to be taken lightly.
But there is nothing in policy to prevent one from undergoing an abortion either, though if policy were to be followed to the letter, it should be grounds for being expelled from staff and the Sea Org. I don’t think I’ve ever seen that happen.
But making abortions mandatory? Its bullshit. Even in the instances where a woman has been subjected to coercion, these are isolated incidents. If the church is guilty of anything its not taking action against those execs who were bullying their subordinates to get an abortion. Maybe they were expelled as a result, but off the top of my head I don’t know of anyone ever getting Comm Eved for coerced abortions.
But most Scientologists and 99.99998% of Sea Org members are not monsters nor are they assholes. Miscavige is definitely an asshole, but not a monster. Only a monster would try to force or coerce another human being to undergo an abortion.
And I am a zealous pro-lifer. I consider abortion to be murder, plain and simple. If this sort of thing was happening on the level alleged by Tony O and the other anti-scn gang, I would’ve at least heard about it considering the widespread gossip mongering that goes on in the Sea Org. Its impossible to keep this stuff under wraps. People are terrible at keeping secrets.
And there is no way I and so many others would’ve dedicated so many years of our life to an organization that promotes abortion as part of standard policy. I would’ve preferred to commit suicide than to be complicit in such atrocities. I certainly wouldn’t have bothered staying part of such a group.
Show me the evidence. And if its true, I would probably commit suicide or at least heck myself into the psych ward because I’d never be able to sleep at night and live with myself. And I am very serious because murder is serious business.
And if you have the evidence or you know someone who has the evidence, stop being an armchair activist and take it to the Feds.
Give yourself time and space, try not to set conditions on the truth (e.g. “this can’t be true or I will kill myself”).
You will sort out truth from policy, and you were never responsible for other people’s behaviors or decisions, only for your own.
This is a great site to get support as you decompress from the intensity of your experiences. Alanzo is a good person.
Atomical, what a refreshing post!
Yes, so honest.
I didn’t have time to write more when I posted that reply to Atomical but now I do.
The reason I thought his post was refreshing was, for one thing, he wasn’t like the “anti-Scn gang” (his phrase) who find fault with everything LRH ever did and leave out (or put in the worst possible light) anything he did that was right. For example, Atomical wrote that LRH was opposed to accepting donations that didn’t give a fair exchange in return, and that LRH was also opposed to raising the cost of Scientology services beyond what would be affordable to the common working person – data that might very well indicate LRH wasn’t just in it for the money.
The anti’s would also not want to admit that “Scientology was more or less subsidised by Hubbard’s royalties from book sales” and that this was why “none of the churches or the Sea Org vessels were fancy or luxurious and there wasn’t enough money in Scientology to undertake any major remodeling or refurbishing jobs” – which data might also mean LRH wasn’t just stashing the money for himself the whole time.
According to Atomical, it was Miscavige who raised prices and initiated fundraisers – but then he added, in a refreshingly fair way, that this wasn’t done out of greed but because Scientology was on the verge of bankruptcy. He also compared the ineffective central management and internal corruption in Hubbard’s day, when so much was held back from him, to the extreme efforts of Miscavige to “keep abreast of EVERYTHING.” Considering this and all the other apparently firsthand info, I doubt there have been but a rare few of such knowledgeable and insightful analyses on the subject of Scn – straightforward and refreshingly unbiased.
Here’s another great quote from Atomical’s post, which directly relates to the blog post:
“And there is no way I and so many others would’ve dedicated so many years of our life to an organization that promotes abortion as part of standard policy….Show me the evidence.”
I’ll take Atomical’s word for it that 99++ percent of all sea org he knows are good people. I don’t agree that 99++ percent of all sea org are good people. There are plenty of bad apples in the bunch.
Selling $5,000 e-meters, selling status, and buying real estate all over the world is not fending off bankruptcy in 2017,
Alison,
I agree that it seems like everyone should be able to agree that Scientology hurts people in many ways. I think that consensus is slowly growing, even among former “Indies.”
I think one of the ways that Scientology harms everyone exposed to its higher level teaching is by instilling a rigidity of thinking. There is a righteousness, an inability to let other people’s experiences be valued if they disagree.
I find that I can finally accept that no amount of reasoned discourse will change a Scientologist’s mind.
I understand what you are saying, Eileen, but I have seen many Scientologists get out of their Scientology mindsets in my 18 years of being a critic.
A Scientologist changes his own mind, and he does it usually by being reminded of his own original values and morals, and seeing how some aspect of Scientology, and what he has become by being a Scientologist, violates them.
You never know what that moral value might be that he uses to “wake” himself up. But it happens. And he never does it during a conversation with you – the one who might be challenging him. Be takes the information you give him and it resonates in his mind for days and weeks. And while he is alone, he begins questioning and thinking in ways that he had not before.
I personally know of hundreds of people who have awakened themselves from Scientology. It just seems to never happen.
It happens all the time.
I believe you Alanzo, you are certainly much more knowledgeable and have been involved in many more discussions than I.
I heard someone recently who reccomended “changing your mind about something every day.” It is humbling to try, but this is my changed mind for today! Thanks!
“changing your mind about something every day”
Sounds exhausting!
Not to be contrary – but – I don’t see “being reminded of original values and morals” as any great factor in people leaving scn. External factors such as cost, bad or no results, overworked and underpaid staff, etc, etc. would be the main reasons. Some OSA staff or hard sell registrars might start feeling guilty and split.
Eileen,
Yes , and while I haven’t read a lot of LRH stuff it seems to be a common refrain in his stuff that I have read that if you are not a scientologist you are the enemy.
Much of my dad’s family is Jehovah witness and they are very similar in that regard. It’s a very destructive thing.
I have a very good friend who has several siblings who are JW. The socialization of members is very similar to Scientology, I think. My friend questioned the “end of the world” scenarios and was quickly told he was an asshole, and shunned. He feels very badly for his nieces and nephews who are being raised with minimal education. Glad your father got out.
Apparently Leah is having “discussions” about including the JWs in Season 3. Leah might have a lifetime job as an anti-cult evangelist. I have mixed opinions about that.
So if there is no federal investigation – and no Miscavige Perp Walk – then what?
What if DM drops dead tomorrow. What will happen?
I can see it now, some nobody in the COS will step up the plate with a most important briefing. The person will tell us DM discarded his body to join LRH in further OT material research.
Behind the scenes are a bunch of lawyers riding this train for all it’s worth.
. . . discarded his body to join LRH – Laughter! – good one
I’ve been thinking a bit about the question – What do “people” think is being accomplished? and looking at it from the viewpoint of – What do “I” think is being accomplished?
If 20,000 people worldwide practicing scn as presented by Miscavige (and possibly a few other top executives) suddenly walked out the door, what effect would it have on the world in general and how would I feel about it personally.
Scientology blogs would be relegated to people reminiscing which might still be fun. In only two years of reading the blogs I’ve come across numerous subjects which cross reference scn and which people have studied and commented on. I’m compiling a list.
Buddhism, Taoism, Atheism, Occultism, Nondualism, Ken Wilber and Integral Life, Rupert Sheldrake and Morphic Resonance, Guy McPherson and Near Term Extinction, TED talks, I could go on. Many thanks to people who more or less introduced me to these subjects.
Gib is here so he gets credit for bringing up Rhetoric and Crowd Psychology! Hypnotism, Confirmation Bias, Tribalism, Affirmations, Groupthink, Cognitive Dissonance, Neuropsychology, etc.
I am now much better prepared to enter The Void with many more concepts packed within my wee thetan ears.
But Richard you would be more prepared to enter the Void if you were Clear and OT like me!
Joshua Tree – You’l find no invalidation of “Clear” coming from me. I claim no super human abilities, just some subjective realities I might not have gotten if I’d become a Moonie or joined Primal (Scream) Therapy back in 1975 – lol
I hear that the Primal Scream people could knock hats off at 50 paces and read your newspaper from miles away!
thanks Richard, but I’ve never spoken of cognitive dissonance or Neuropsychology, that’s ok.
But there is another I have spoken of which is sublime writing, the power to provoke ecstasy in a reader or viewer. I’m not sure Hubbard read about such things but he sure did tap into it. It took me a while to understand sublime, a strange concept, but now I see it in great movies and especially sci fi movies since the technology to produce sublime images on the screen has advanced since the time of the ancients and painters and poem writers. I’d consider myself pretty illiterate when it comes being able to produce such works as are most of the population I gather but I do understand now.
Some easy reads:
https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/l/longinus/on_the_sublime/
http://cnqzu.com/library/Philosophy/neoreaction/_extra%20authors/Burke,%20Edmund/Burke%20Edmund-Of%20the%20Sublime%20and%20Beautiful.pdf
The second pdf is quite interesting since it talks about emotions. Both writings were quite eye opening for me in comparisons to Hubbard.
Hey Gib – I just took a quick look at “A Philosophical Inquiry . . .” by Edmond Burke and here’s what jumped out at me:
“Novelty – The first and simplest emotion we discover in the human mind, is Curiosity.”
No wonder I dove into Scientology! laughter
“That is not a rhetorical question. I really want to know what people think is being accomplished to actually stop the abuses inside Scientology by this show because a federal investigation, so far, is never going to happen with what Leah is delivering here.”
For me, what the show is accomplishing is putting a major stop gap on anybody joining scientology and hopefully reaching those still in to leave via connections whether wog or scientologist. This is just the opposite of what Hubbard set up, and of course Hubbard’s set up is that anybody against scientology is evil.
The show is using ethos, logos and pathos appeals, thumbs up to A&E.
The show is not the only entity doing rhetorical analysis of scientology:
http://www.utpjournals.press/doi/abs/10.3138/jrpc.26.1.107
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230504417_3
https://leoniekijewski.weebly.com/rhetorical-analysis.html
I thought that the stories of the two people who went to Mace Kingsley Ranch in their childhoods were heartbreaking, but I found nothing in the episode that could trigger a federal investigation, as Leah claimed she wanted at the beginning of Season 2.
Is it the plan to call for a federal investigation at the beginning of the season and then never give them anything they can investigate?
I see that Leah signed on to be part of a new movie with J-Lo. So, in addition to getting a sitcom lead on CBS since starting up Scientology and the Aftermath, she’s also got a part in a new movie.
Good for her.
Now, where are all the bodies buried that Mike Rinder knows are either there or not so that the people who have been harmed by Scientology can get justice?
If they are there, tell us where they are.
If they are not there, tell us that there are no bodies, and thus there will be no federal investigation.
Otherwise, this is pure emotional manipulation and exploitation of people who have been fucked with enough.
What?
I am trying my best to figure out your reasoning Alanzo. Do you think the only purpose of the show is prosecution? The people who ran that ranch still run a school ,don’t you think that is something that is good for the general population to know.
The comment about leah getting a movie deal is a thinly veiled really thinly veiled passave aggressive insult I think you are better than that.
The only purpose for the show should be – in my opinion – justice for those who have been abused by Scientology.
I have been criticizing Scientology as an ex for 18 years and seen almost no justice for those who have been abused.
I have also seen one of the biggest abusers, Mike Rinder, end up getting paid 100s of thousands of dollars for this show.
And, Leah Remini, who promoted Scientology as a celebrity for more than a decade, exhuming her career.
If all that happens as a result of this show is that Mike Rinder gets paid, and Leah gets her career back, then don’t you think all those people who have been abused by Scientology – those on the show and those not on the show – will have gotten screwed?
I do.
That’s why I say that we need actionable information that law enforcement can actually do something with to get justice for those who have been abused. So far, Leah Remini’s Scientology and the Aftermath has given us nothing that any law enforcement agency can act on.
And so, if they present nothing that any law enforcement agency can act on, but Mike gets paid and Leah gets her career back, then will you think the show’s purpose has been achieved, Allison?
Who would know besides people like you that these abuses even occurred without this show?
Doing let your anger blind you to the good that can come of this. It’s also in my opinion a good thing if you can stop anymore from being abused.
I would agree with you that exposure of the abuse is good. But that’s been achieved before. The Anonymous movement completely dried up all recruiting into orgs, and Anonymous gave the media (like John Sweeney) the balls to start reporting on Scientology again.
But, knowing Scientology, they will just go right back to their abusive ways as soon as the show is over and everyone has moved on. They’ve done it so many times before.
That’s why we need TEETH from the government. Subpoena power, forensic accounting, the power to throw people in jail. Miscavige will not change without a real and constant threat to his power.
It isn’t anger that you are seeing from me. It is 18 years of experience and pragmatism on what is needed to get justice for the abuse, and to make the abuse stop forever.
We have this chance. Let’s not blow it by making this show only a maudlin melodrama. Let’s actually get the information necessary to create the Miscavige Perp Walk. What creates the Miscavige Perp Walk is evidence of criminal activity on the part of the Church of Scientology. That is the only thing that will achieve all of our purposes.
Alanzo: “But, knowing Scientology, they will just go right back to their abusive ways as soon as the show is over and everyone has moved on.”
Go back? Have they let up on any of their “abusive ways” because of the show, and specifically what abusive ways?
Secondly, what do we know for a fact that Scn is engaged in currently that is illegal?
(I don’t mean these as rhetorical questions.)
We don’t know that anything that the Church of Scientology has engaged in is illegal. Immoral – yes. Whether it’s illegal is still a major question which should be answered by the show. The FBI investigation that was closed in 2010, I believe, is actually evidence that the feds could find nothing to prosecute.
Thus they could find nothing illegal.
And Mike says he was engaged in that effort.
So this definitely needs to be addressed by the show – especially since Mike and Leah went to attorneys at the end of season 1, and just left us hanging.
As far as abusive goes, Tony Ortega reports that the RPF was disbanded 4 years ago. If no one is watching, just like disconnection and everything else that is an exertion of power for him, he will bring it back.
I don’t believe it’s a valid assumption that DM would bring back the RPF if no one is watching. He may very well have disbanded it simply because of its sheer potential to make trouble for the church – but that would basically be PR trouble as opposed to legal trouble, wouldn’t it?
That’s what I thought – we don’t know of anything they’re doing that is illegal. This is my point. Disconnection, for example, is not illegal and some other churches also practice it.
In other words, the best we can hope for as an outcome of the Aftermath show is that it raises the awareness of their practices, such as highly pressuring members for money- although much of what the show says they do is highly exaggerated at best.
And the worst that could happen because of the show – and is happening – is that the church is being publicly discrimnated against, which sets a bad example of violating the American ideal of religious freedom.
No. I think that the potential for criminal charges of false imprisonment and physical assault, etc on the RPF are very high. The only thing that keeps those charges from being filed is that “prison of belief” thing that Wright keeps going on about where the person doesn’t actually realize that crimes have been committed against him by his religion until the statute of limitations runs out.
DM has some of the best legal help in the US. And I believe that it is the possibility of criminal charges that drove him to eliminate the RPF.
And I also believe that it will continue to be the threat of criminal charges that will cause him to make the moves he makes. He will not do anything that reduces his own power or wealth unless the stakes for himself personally are high enough.
That’s why we must focus on illegal or criminal activity.
And if there is none there, then I believe it is completely unethical for Scientology and the Aftermath to drag out the melodrama without saying that they have looked and found nothing illegal.
Everyone needs to know exactly how angry and hysterical they should be about Scientology. Making people believe that things that are only immoral are illegal – just to keep people watching your melodrama and advance your career while dragging someone’s religion through the mud – is not right.
This is where we part philosophically, these people have been harmed whether criminal charges can be brought or not I don’t know and really don’t care in the context of the show. I would be thrilled if the perpetrators were held accountable but these people are able to tell there stories, families can be aware of the dangers there is all kinds of good that can come out of it.
How is any of this just dragging someone religion through the mud. I thought we all agreed or most of us that Scientology is harmful to people.
Because if you have to sign non disclosure agreements or escape its not a religion it’s a cult and people are doing bad. Even the JW don’t require that.
If you choose to believe this was all a career boost for leah again I don’t care if that’s what she is doing because of even one person changes their mind about getting caught up in that madness it did it’s job.
You have to remember that only Sea Org members sign non-disclosures, and then only in the last ten years or so.
The Sea Org, conservatively, makes up less than 15% of Scientologists worldwide.
The overwhelming majority of Scientologists do not sign anything to leave. They just leave.
Scientology is not inherently harmful. It is the abuse of power in Scientology that is harmful.
I also don’t agree that Scientology itself isn’t harmful. From what I have read of LRH, admittedly not all of his stuff, it is harmful.
I did Scientology for 16 years. Scientology itself was not inherently harmful to me. My experience with Scientology is the experience of the overwhelming majority of people who were Scientologists.
This is not to take away any abuse that anyone ever suffered.
It is simply a statement of fact which, right along side any abuse, must also be considered when thinking about Scientology.
You can hate it and consider that it would never be right for you, but Scientology is not inherently harmful, and in the spirit of the freedom of religion that we value in western civilization, one must do their best to recognize the rights of Scientologists to practice their chosen religion – whether you would ever be a Scientologist or not.
Very well said, Alanzo.
Would you say that your experience as an OSA agent was not harmful to you? I recall you writing about that as an ethical trauma.
Compared to what? Being yelled at by an angry boss who I looked up to and felt betrayed that he was actually an asshole?
Or finding out that someone you have been married to is married to someone else and has another family two towns away?
That was an ethical trauma. In fact, I look at most of my time in Scientology as one long ethical trauma. Like a constant test of character.
Yes to all of that, although learning that someone you were married to goes well beyond ethical trauma.
My point is that Scientology was harmful to you.
If you want to acknowledge the gains it is also important to acknowledge the harms.
Either way, I am sorry those things happened to you.
it’s harmful
I have to totally disagree with you.
Anybody who has done the OT levels, that would include public as well as staff at orgs/missions/sea org, any of the levels signs bonds and legal doc’s not to disclose those materials or discuss them. So saying only Sea Org members are affected is not true. But I also believe anybody who does a simple course signs legal doc’s in the same manner, but they don’t care, they just left and haven’t been thru High School Indocrination.
Scientology is inherently harmful for there is no such thing as Scientology, it’s actually Hubbardology. And of course, since no Clears or OT’s it’s fraud you might say.
For someone to spend lots of time or money or effort to travel up this so called Bridge to Freedom to supposedly achieve all the EP’s and find out none really exist, that is fraud or false promises, but it’s hubbard’s rhetoric/sublime to keep one involved chasing a carrot on a stick.
Much Love,
Gib
Keeper of the False Tech, LOL
I didn’t realize it was yesterday’s topic at Mike’s blog and most people hadn’t watched the episode yet, but here’s what I posted:
“Hubbard wrote it so “all Scientologists” believe it and follow it. How many exes here treated their own children that way?”
It’s a good question. It provides perspective and context for the Scientology experience that is being represented on the show.
Last night’s Aftermath episode wasn’t even about the abuses of the church. It was about what individual Scientologists supposedly did – and since they were Scientologists, and since all Scientologists always practice Scientology, therefore Scientology is bad, AND the church had to know about it and condone it because it is always aware of what Scientologists are up to. Seriously, every one of these gross generalities were implied if not stated in just that many words.
And the upshot is that Scientology as a practice is being black PR’d.
“And the upshot is that Scientology as a practice is being black PR’d.”
It’s not being black PR’d, it being thruthful PR’d.
Alanzo mentions the show is emotional manipulation and that is true but for once a good reason, while Hubbard did in fact also emotionally manipulate one to join and continue in Scientology and he even admitted he failed at the end, no Clears or OT’s.
This is a great example of tribalism, Gib.
Emotional manipulation was bad when Hubbard did it – now that you are an anti. But it was good when you were a Scientologist.
And now that you are an anti, emotional manipulation is good when Leah and Mike do it. But it would be bad if you were still a Scientologist.
What if you just said that emotional manipulation was dishonest no matter who did it?
not really.
if I hadn’t experienced scientology I could understand what you are saying, an innocent who reads some of Hubbards writings and it sounds good and gets involved. But because I have experienced it I can state what I state now.
Emotional manipulation is never good. However, truth telling is good. Truth telling is not the same as emotional manipulation.
The truth will set you free, but first it will kick your ass.
Exactly! 🙂
And this is the first lesson to learn after Scientology: just because it makes you feel good to believe something, your good feeling about it is NOT evidence that it is true.
So many people seem to have forgotten this lesson after Scientology as Anti-Scientologists.
Marildi that makes no sense. It is a Scientology school is it not? That Scientology school is still running is it not? Are Catholic schools not part of the Catholic church the answer is yes. It is same thing.
The school is Scientology.
Yes, Allison, it was a Scientology school in the sense that it used Scientology and was affiliated with the church (though not actually a part of the church itself). But that doesn’t mean everything the school did had to have been an application of Scientology.
The actual abuses that were described on that TV show were not part of Scientology.
But I can understand why you got the impression you did. That is exactly what the Mike and Leah tried to convince people of, by directing the viewers’ thinking to come to the conclusion that since it was a Scientology school everything it did was an application of Scientology.
At the same time they glossed over the fact that the school is no longer in existence and has been closed for 15 years!
I call it insidious propaganda – in order to forward an agenda.
Yeah – take a look at this tweet by tony ortega on that:
The answer to this question was “These incidents occured more than 15 years ago. They are likely unable to be prosecuted.”
But that’s not what Tony Ortega said. And Tony knows these legal implications. He is blatantly trying to create a moral panic around Scientology, using these old incidents to stir up people, rather than telling them the truth.
It’s really quite sick. And these guys are all on hyperdrive right now. They do not care what the truth is.
The problem is that all this hysteria can create a “crazy people who cried wolf” perception with law enforcement, who are likely to become too skeptical on real prosecutable crimes.
I’m not that familiar with tweeting. Did Ortega every respond to kb or you?
kb asked Tony a question. Tony answered him.
I responded to Tony’s answer to kb.
He really has his patter down. A specious answer for everything.
Did he ever respond to your response? I doubt it.
The first few weeks I got back on Twitter, he would take my answers and create a new tweet – so as not to call attention to my account by re-tweeting me to his 15,000 followers. (Re-tweeting can be a way of promoting)
So instead he’d send out a new tweet saying “Troll says Scientologists don’t believe in pedophilia! Troll ignores THIS!” And then he would attach a picture of his out-of-context quote from Dianetics where Hubbard talked about a 7 year old girl.
So I would answer that tweet.
And so it would go.
Angelo Pagan, Leah Remini’s husband, got involved, and basically called me a pedophile Scientologist to all of his 500,000 followers.
Stuff like that happens on Twitter.
Loads of fun.
Anyway. He’s stopped doing that now.
Leah Remini blocked me after calling me a “vile Scientologist” to her almost 600,000 followers for questioning Gary “Jackson” Morehead’s story on Scientology the Aftermath. Mike Rinder also called me a Scientologist to his 16,000 followers.
They all know I’m not a Scientologist.
But to his credit, Tony has never called me a Scientologist, or even referred to me by name. I’m just “Troll”. Also to his credit, he has never blocked me despite me tweeting things to his answers to people like you see above almost every day. I think he believes that having “trolls” or critics is part of his job.
Every day I’m waiting for him to block me.
And when he does, you’ll be the first to hear about it.
That gives me a somatic. For real.
I really wonder how this is all going to end up.
I actually think that they don’t feel like they are winning. Even after winning the Emmy, I think they know the tactics they are taking of saying things they know are not true just to try to create this moral panic are taking a toll on them. I think that they are losing steam.
They know they have become Scientology in their fight against Scientology.
I believe this is their internal planning position: Everything Scientology does is basically legal. If we can find anything illegal, it happened too long ago to prosecute, or has some other impossibility to it.
So they have consciously decided to lie and obfuscate the truth for the “greater good” in order to get more people to become angry and hysterical over Scientology. And once so many people are angry, then government will HAVE to act.
It’s the same tactic that the anti-cult movement took on Waco. And that worked.
But that tactic also taught governments that people get hysterical and extremely vengeful over their former religions, and they need to be careful of taking what members of the anti-cult movement say as real.
I’ve had similar thoughts and wondered how they justify – to themselves –
what they’re doing. If they confront it at all, they probably tell themselves that – it’s the greatest good. Or that – the ends justify the means. Talk about irony – the principal things they have criticized the church for. I actually feel for them. Mike especially, because I feel I know him well enough to know that he’s a decent person. Probably Leah is too.
Anyway, it’s a good thing that at least you and Marty are attempting to point out the hypocrisy and the negative effects being created.
I think Tony recognizes the validity of your points, even though you have been a major shit-stirrer (and proud of it!) on the Bunker.
You have visible support in the Bunker commenting community.
Really? It’s visible?
It must be just invisible to me then.
You must have missed the end of the show. The school still operates in florida.
Yes, but the one in Florida wasn’t a “ranch school” intended for teenagers in trouble – although it was presented by Mike as being the same. I just looked now at that part of the show again to get his exact words. He first said “true” in relation to the ranch school being closed down, and then added:
“But they are still very much operating in Florida. They still apply L. Ron Hubbard technology as the basis of their program” – which, in the context of the show, implied that the abuses that had occurred in the ranch school were, first of all, Scn tech and, secondly, that the same things are now going in the school in Florida. This is propaganda – stating the facts in a slanted way so as to avoid outright lies while serving the intended purpose of smearing not just the church but the religious practice.
Allison, I just looked at the Mace-Kinsley facebook page, and apparently it isn’t even a school – it’s called the Mace-Kingsley Family Center “specializing in children’s auditing.” There are scores of photos showing happy looking kids and families – very unlike the photos we saw on TV of the ranch school that was closed down years ago. Have a look: https://www.facebook.com/mace.kingsley/
I would question any psychological type counselling of children. The site also mentions the Purification Rundown – on children? There may be some legalities at issue there in both instances. The site obviously paints a glowing portrait of itself.
It might just be an unfortunate fact of life that some small minority of parents push their own beliefs on their children, probably with good intentions. Hopefully with Mace-Kingsley if the child doesn’t like it the parents would take him or her out.
I got kicked out of Sunday School but my mother wasn’t very upset. 🙂
Well, I watched some of the videos and it would be pretty far-fetched for someone to claim that many kids, parents and staff were just acting for the camera – and they were all very positive. If I were a parent of young kids or teenagers and lived anywhere near Mace-Kinsley, I would definitely check into it.
And I seriously doubt they are doing anything remotely illegal, because if they were the CoS (whose authority they are under) would be all over it – especially since they are located just a mile from Flag, which the church goes to extremes to protect. Also, just think of all the anti’s who would love to report to the authorities the slightest whisper of anything illegal going on, if for example they heard about it from some former staff member or disgruntled parent who left the church.
Kicked out of Sunday School? That must happen to only the most incorrigible kids. 😀
Hi marildi – Mace-Kingsley might very well be a great place for kids. I was just questioning what type of auditing they do. There’s no information. Auditors pulling overts and withholds on kids would be weird imo. I would have been constantly red tagged. (joke)
I wasn’t incorrigible as a kid, maybe just rambunctious. Maybe I talked out too much or joked around. I had better things to do on Sunday morning than sit around in the church basement and read about Baby Jesus. (joking again)
Above there was a discussion about what Mike and Leah are doing. At the end of the episode my impression was that there was an actual weariness they expressed. Mike, Leah and A&E have been receiving hundreds of stories from people telling their very real and sad stories, not just from scn but from other religions and cults. I get the idea they feel they are taking the world on their shoulders, a daunting task.
I bet you are correct, there are many “prisons of belief.”
I think that is the issue Alanzo is trying to sort through on this blog. That is why I return here.
Hi, Richard.
Regarding you being an incorrigible kid, I was obviously just kidding too. 😉
You also wrote: “At the end of the episode my impression was that there was an actual weariness they expressed.”
I’m not sure how “actual” it was, considering how much goes on of what I perceive as “acting” – or overacting. Not just on this last episode but the majority, if not all of them – mainly on the part of Leah when she’s listening to one of the victims tell their story. The photo of her at the top of this blog post is the look she typically gives – which, as I say, is OVERacting.
I first noticed this during the early part of Season 1 – when there weren’t yet so many overall outpoints, or I wasn’t yet seeing them – and wrote a comment on Mike’s blog to the effect that Leah was reacting in a way that came across as acting. Surprisingly, Mike didn‘t delete it – possibly because he thought there was truth to it. On a similar note, he commented recently that he disagrees with the playing of dramatic music.
They are practicing counseling without a license (or a clue). Churches can walk that moral gray line. There is no doubt that Scientology is protected by the “religion angle.”
Eileen, I don’t know if you’ve done many Scientology courses, but I hope you’re not just accepting what anti-Scientologists say with regard to Scientology not having “a clue.” The actual results are what should be looked at, and from all I’ve read and heard over the years, the Mace-Kinsley group has a very good reputation of helping children with counseling.
Evidence of this? Promo is not evidence.
Peer reviewed studies of effectiveness? I would never let anyone mess around in my child’s mind without evidence of safety and efficacy
I wasn’t actually talking about their promo. I was referring to word of mouth – which has been very positive over the decades since I first heard about Mace-Kinsley auditing children.
“The ranch” seems to be the exception to their history, but other churches have had similar exceptions – such as the Catholic priests having molested children while the vast majority of them have not.
As for any actual “studies” of the auditing done at Mace-Kingsley (or anywhere) I don’t know of any. But there again, neither do I know of any other church counseling studies of effectiveness. Regardless of that, parents can certainly look into their records and references, and I have no disagreement with them doing so.
Just want some outcome evidence.
Would you take them to Mace-Kingsley’s before following your pediatrician’s advice?
Are there statistics (real ones) showing real gains through this approach? I have not encountered any.
Marildi,
Are you surprised, I am sure the pictures of the ranches made it seem like nirvana.
Alison, there is probably some truth to what you’re saying. But there are other things to take into consideration, some of which I’ve already commented on in other comments on this thread so I won’t go on about it.
I have to admit to you that the basis of my thinking is that I’ve seen for myself the good that auditing can do – on myself and others, including some children. On the other hand, you may not have direct, personal experience but only know what you’ve heard from people who are almost entirely focused on the abuses.
Some of those people are “never-in’s” and others were once “in” but had bad experiences – similar to the difference between what was experienced at the Ranch compared to the good experiences of children at other places. Nevertheless, you aren’t likely to hear very much, if anything, on most blogs about any good experiences.
Anyway, let’s see what happens after the next episode and maybe we’ll all discuss that one too.
It sounds like no one is questioning the truthfulness of these accounts, and that they were done by scientologists, and now they recognize the harm they did.
There’s certainly nothing unusual about parents raising their children in their own faith. Any picture of a kid holding a Scientology certificate is met with instant outrage on scn blogs.
Catholics certainly post “first communion” pictures.