I have to say that Tony Ortega hit it out of the park this morning. Not only did he publish evidence of probable criminal activity and cover up by members of the Church of Scientology in the Danny Masterson rape case but he also produced Dani Lemberger, who said:
Hey Tony, Shabbat Shalom,
Not much I can say about Marty. I was surprised by the Church’s attorney presenting the email from Marty but I don’t see it had much impact. It gave them satisfaction that they had something on me. I laughed at the very bizarre twist.
The next day I wrote Marty an email, see below. He didn’t respond. He did answer you when you asked him about it.
Marty and Tami and I spent a week together at their home in June 2012. That got us declared. I stayed in comm with Marty the next year or so, until mid-2013. He became weird and “anti-Indie Scientology,” so the correspondence ended.
There was never a real upset between us, he has no reason to want to hurt me. Only if he is now working with David Miscavige and being paid by Miscavige would he give any info to a lawyer in Israel he doesn’t know.
That’s all I know about this. Regards, Dani
All I can say – at this point – is, “Who’s got the ketchup?”
I think that very few members of the anti-Scientology tribe will believe me, but I’ll gladly eat this. In fact, the only person who could stop me from eating this is Marty Rathbun – but he told me on Thursday that he “doesn’t give a damn any more”, and that’s the last I’ve heard of him.
Maybe he’ll email me right before I take my first bite with whatever explanation he has about all this. The Church of Scientology has just successfully dead-agented him, and all he has to say for himself is that he does not give a damn any more.
He obviously doesn’t give a damn about any of the people who trusted him, either. Or he’d get his head out of his selfish, narcissistic asshole and give the victims of Scientology the information they need, and have always needed from him.
This goes for Mike Rinder, too.
Marty stated in an affidavit a few years ago that during the whole time you were the head of OSA you ran – on Miscavige’s orders – every operation against every critic.
That means you lied to me on your blog.
You harmed good people, Mike.
From Marty’s affidavit:
“Between 1982 and 2004, it was my job to act as a go-between for Miscavige and OSA. The manner in which we shielded Miscavige was elaborate. Much of Miscavige’s control of OSA was done “off the record.” Every evening I would receive an intelligence briefing in writing from OSA. The briefing was usually several pages summarizing reports from private investigators and Scientologists serving as undercover spies watching and interacting with Scientology critics. The written briefing, contrary to established corporate policy, had no routing information on it. That is, the daily briefing had no indication who wrote the report or who it was directed to. If a report ever got out of the Church, it could not, on its face, be used to incriminate any of its author or recipients.
19. “After I read the report each day, I was instructed by Miscavige to put it into a fresh envelope with no routing information on it. I then personally carried the envelope into Miscavige’s office and set it on his desk. I was the only person in Scientology, aside from his wife and secretary, ever authorized such access to his desk. When Mr. Miscavige read the reports, he would enter my office with the report in hand. He would say ‘beat it’ to my secretary or anyone else who happened to be in my office. Once any visitors had left, Mr. Miscavige would discuss the contents of the report. Often, he would instruct me to order OSA to direct an operative or private investigator to find out something to do concerning the target of infiltration or investigation. On other occasions, Mr. Miscavige would joke about what was reported about a particular target, or rant about the target’s activity. When Miscavige was done discussing the daily OSA briefing with me, he would throw the report on my desk. That was my cue to pick it up and shred it after he left the office and before anyone was permitted to return to my office.
20. “For 22 years, my schedule was to wake up at least an hour before David Miscavige’s scheduled wake up time so that I could collect all important information on any matter of concern to him being handled by the OSA network. Every morning, I was required to brief Miscavige verbally on any major developments on matters handled by the OSA network around the world or matters concerning security. My briefing to him would begin with major problems which he insisted he know about. My briefing included reports about handling the media stories, investigations, legal cases, security breaches, and potential security situations. That briefing would last anywhere from a few minutes on a quiet day with no major developments, to all day when something was afoot that riveted Miscavige’s attention. Miscavige would issue orders to OSA that I had to accurately note on paper.
21. “After the conference with Miscavige, there were a number of options available for issuing his orders, depending on their scope and the level of security required. Most often, I would call Mike Rinder, into my office and I would brief him verbally on Miscavige’s directives. Mr. Rinder would then return to his own office and type up the orders as written directives to OSA. Those directives would be worded as if the orders were originated by him, with no reference to me or RTC, and especially not to Mr. Miscavige. On many occasions, Mr. Miscavige would require Mr. Rinder’s presence during briefings in which he wanted more detail than usual, or wanted to issue more detailed orders than usual. In such cases, it would be my responsibility to follow up to verify that Mr. Rinder relayed Mr. Miscavige’s orders to OSA as Rinder’s own orders.
22. “Mr. Rinder and I were ordered by Mr. Miscavige to keep secret virtually all of our communications, and to specifically keep them secret from any other managers or staff with CSI and RTC. All other CSI managers had little to no knowledge of any matters affecting Scientology from the world outside of the Church. Except for OSA staff, Sea Org members have little contact with the media or the world outside of their corporate duties.
Tell critics what was done to them, Mike.
Every single one of them.
31 thoughts on “Eating Crow: Tony Ortega Produces Dani Lemberger”
Hi Alanzo. I don’t read the Sci. blogs as much as I use to. Trump upping the anti on harming all sentient beings on earth has kind of taken the wind out of my sails. That being said this post is mildly distracting. As I said I don’t read the blogs as much so I’m a little behind. Is the take away here that Marty is working for miscavige? I too wouldn’t have seen that coming.
Some pretty convincing evidence has been produced and all Marty can say about it is “I don’t give a damn about it any more.”
This is something I’ve seen from both Marty and Mike. They spill beans that will only get them beans in return. It’s the Bean Theory of Truth and Reconciliation, apparently.
The three questions I posed in my last comment still stand. Although Rathbun hasn’t let through any comments on his blog for the last month, indicating he has burned his bridges. The real question is what Monique thinks about all this.
Oh Doloris, you are so right.
This is not over.
By any means.
My preferred understanding of the facts: Mark just wanted it all to go away ASAP – for the reasons stated on his blog, i.e. deciding that being an anti-Scientologist was as bad as being a Scientologist – and told the Co$ “name your price to get off my back”. They did, he paid, end of story. A good man broke under the pressure like Bob Minton.
Interesting that you now choose to attack Mike Rinder. Please note the use of the words “most often” in Marty’s testimony. Also, I wonder how that worked out for Marty when Mike was in the Hole for over a year. For somebody who prides himself on critical thinking Alanzo, you really dropped the ball. Sad you have turned into such a hateful person.
I don’t fault you one bit for drawing the conclusions that you have, and I am prepared to eat crow with you (although it will be doubly hard on a long-time vegetarian like myself!)…
I can’t say that I am a friend of Marty because I have only once met him in person. Ironically it was when he was at the last major Indy gathering of July 2012 and he was busy doing the “hard work of PR” with Mike Rinder and they were sweating the long-distance connection to the Dror center people, whom we were able to communicate by video connection. We just did not have time to talk. No matter, I have read every word of his website since arriving on it December 2009 (and catching up every single prior post) and posted as “Watchful Navigator” (for which I was declared by the church when they matched a story to my original report to RTC). I have read Marty’s books. All of the above with appreciation for the intelligent, reasoned approach to graduating Scientology. I appreciated every step of the way.
I wanted to add to Virginia’s comments and references to earlier postings and say that 2013 was a very ugly year for Marty, when those who refused to follow him away from LRH-worship after Hubbard’s authorship of the OTVIII Student Briefing was finally made clear, went into “Fair Game” mode.
Notable leaders of this bitter reaction about this change in direction were Jim Logan (Milestone 2 – this got very ugly) and Dani Lemberger (who stated publicly that Marty Rathbun “changed sides” – and who knows what has been said in private).
Okay, so a “bitter feud” between Marty and Dani ends in Marty childishly stooping to FairGame Dani – right? WRONG. Think again, folks. That is not Marty. It is not consistent *at all* with his overt operating basis and further – even if he *felt* like doing such a thing, I can assure you that he thought it through as to the hypocritical betrayal of trust.
So what is the operation here? It is FairGame final ploy. After you destroy a man’s reputation sufficiently so you are fairly certain no one is left to come to his aid, you Scios do the “Science of Survival finsl blow” (the idea is that he never recovers).
Marty is in that position of “denial = guilt.” People are so sure that he did this now, that denial makes him an automatic liar – an even worse position.
And let me state for the record Mr. Tony Ortega that Marty taking money from Miscavige “off the books” is not even a remote possibility.
There are people at war here, people heavily invested in the unfolding Scio-thriller, and then there are people like Marty who want to get on with their lives and are done with the games.
That Marty knows how to get word to Miscavige (as brilliantly proposed above as a possibility) is a given. That money changed hands is not however, even remotely a possibility.
I can understand now, how Dani got pulled into this ploy and manipulated into turning full-bore against Marty, but shame on Tony and the rest of you – both anti- and Indy – shame on you for drawing simplistic, partisan conclusions and putting Scientology before your humanity.
You see, Tony and Dani get to be conspiratorial and leave one and all feeling aghast that Marty “would do such a thing!”
But we do not get to speculate for one moment that Miscavige has those kind of resources and intelligence community connections (who work for and as, private investigators) to pull out all the stops – to set up the perfect coup – even getting Dani who wrote a blistering criticism of Tony’s “bigotry” allied in going for Marty’s repute being sunk to the ocean floor.
Oh – and by the way, the crime that *must not* be attributed to David Miscavige at *any* cost – that remains without statute of limitations – is the murder of Lisa Miscavige. And all that stands between David Miscavige and life imprisonment is reform of the compromised Clearwater Police Department so that the investigation is re-opened and people like Marty can be called to testify.
*That’s* not going to happen, although Miscavige will stop at *nothing* to cover all of his tracks.
People forget that Marty has been the *only one* brave enough to publicly assign Miscavige final responsibility for that horrendous act.
But back to the issue at hand.
Dani simply must produce the e-mail and its headers before assuming anything he is being led to believe by Ortega.
Meanwhile we will just have to give Marty the benefit of what will soon become obvious as the single most important of all Human Rights (ironically disseminated by the church:
INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY
Welcome to Alanzo’s blog!
Did you mean “Lisa McPherson” above rather than “Lisa Miscavige”?
oops! Yes, of course.
That’s what I thought! 🙂
Don’t pick up that fork quite yet, Alanzo!
Let’s review this statement from Deni that you bolded:
“Only if he is now working with David Miscavige and being paid by Miscavige would he give any info to a lawyer in Israel he doesn’t know.”
I don’t see how Lemberger can conclude this from what he stated he knows.
Does Lemberger have some access to the inside of Rathbun’s head to determine that MR’s motivation, if he did supply the email, is that he has received payment? And from Miscavige?”
Could another explanation have fewer assumptions necessary? Suppose the church has hacked MR’s email account? Is that too far fetched? Suppose that is the source of the email rather than MR giving it to the Israeli lawyer for a payment?
Suppose the church had actually committed such an illegal act (far-fetched-ha!) and had lost track of the provenance of the email, through the myriad of lawyers, multiple cases and international law firms?
This possibility sounds more likely to me than having to construct a conspiratorial relationship between MR and DM.
I see Dani’s conclusion, especially his use of the word ONLY, as one more instance of L Ron Hubbard’s simplistic “The Why” thinking for cause and effect. LRH taught Scientologists that there can ONLY be one why!
I’ve learned the hard way that you should never treat these things that way. When dealing with the murky world of Scientology where no one, not even Mike Rinder 🙂 , has all the facts, you have to leave open the possibility of several viable hypotheses. And since Tony himself – and Mike Rinder – had their emails hacked by the Church, yours is also a viable hypothesis.
Tony is also riding his own little hobby horse. He thinks that this mention of Marty Rathbun being the source of the email is PROOF that Marty and Monique took a pay-off, dropped their case, and cut their lawyers out of their fee. That one is also quite a jump from the evidence provided.
The questions that remain are:
How old is that email? Dani said that he quit talking to Marty after he went anti-Indy in 2013. So I presume that it is at least as old as that.
When did the Church attorney get that email from Marty, or a source he thought was Marty?
And of course, how exactly did he get that email?
None of these questions have been answered by the information that Tony has provided.
There are a lot of possible explanations for what is actually going on here, including the hypothesis that Marty was a “doomed spy” as described in Sun Tzu from the very beginning of his circus back in 2009. Reread the description of “DOOMED SPY”. Does that fit what Marty Rathbun has been doing since he hit the internet? Maybe his job was to distract anyone from ever finding out anything prosecutable that Marty Mike and Dave have done, and to steer everyone to things like disconnection and things that can no longer be prosecuted.
Scientologists don’t believe in improvisation, but in following technology EXACTLY. If you use Sun Tzu’s 5 types of spies, and consider that Marty has now turned out to be a #4 DOOMED SPY, you might ask what other types of spies DM has operating in this scenario.
Yes, I know. Sounds like a “conspiracy theory”. But you don’t think that the ultimate role playing game is not going to have roles for people to play?
I can see as a possibility, that Marty could have been cast in the role of “doomed spy”.
That would not be my first conclusion, however, as it suggests a tighter planning and competence level from church officials and Miscavige than I feel is warranted.
I don’t think Marty’s dismissive response can be construed as some kind of confirmation either.
But let’s say it was the plan, to have Marty go out into the field and create the distraction against disconnection, etc., while the clock ticked away towards the statute of limitations on miscaviges crimes.
That reason seems too thin to support such a plan, particularly when one considers the energetic Squirrel Busters harrassment (and grey-area NEW actionable crimes in the conduct of that campaign).
Miscavige has been getting away with so much for so long, I just don’t see how he would think he would need to “spend” his top lieutenants, enduring the nasty things they constantly said about him, in order to protect himself from prosecution.
I think we can take Marty for what he’s saying: he’s sick and tired of dealing with both Scientologists and ex-scientologist and, following advice from Martha Stout’s book, The Sociopath Next Door is actively distancing himself from the fray.
As far as cooperation between MR and DM, I could see this type of scenario:
Miscavige surprise calls Marty, they have a tense conversation but agree to something like, “you leave me alone, and I will leave you alone.”
Most likely, it’s not that simple, but it just could be that it might be.
One last thing: it seems to me that one thing that motivates Tony O is his need to throw his followers red meat at every opportunity. That and to show that he’s right and MR is wrong.
I am persuaded by much of what you say here. Especially your.observation that Marty is sick and tired of scientology and ex scientology. I saw that in him beginning about 2 years ago.
It ran through almost all of his posts for the last year, including the posts that exes consider such a betrayal.
When you are getting out of Scientology, you can’t really voice your new way of seeing things to other Scientologists. They’ll come after you. It’s the same way with Ex-Scientologists, and Marty just stuck around long enough to tell them his new way of thinking.
Look at how well that turned out for him!
Yes. individuation, but not in the the way Hubbard described it but in the way you write about it a few posts back.
I believe I first encountered the concept of “graduating” from Scientology on Marty Rathbun’s blog. This was many years ago and personally, I’ve found that framing my experience of being in, and then leaving Scientology as “graduation” has been the most helpful way to process the whole experience. So I appreciate Marty’s observations to that effect.
Rathbun was a focal point of some intensity for the years he was in the church and for several years after he left. He’s since been the subject of endless speculation and interest, and if he were a little bit more accessible and explanatory, he could probably defuse a lot of the guessing games.
But then maybe it wouldn’t be defused, but made worse and he would be drawn right back into it all.
So what is with Marty Rathbun, where does he stand, whose side is he on?
I don’t know the man so I can’t even say with anything other than a guess, and if anyone is interested, this would be my guess:
Seems way too convenient to me. For what appears to be “all sides” burning Marty right now strikes me as fear-based. Perhaps Marty is up to something that is so scaring the bejeesus out of all these people that they wanted to try and burn his credibility before he gets to do whatever it is. I don’t know, I’m just looking at possibilities, but I will say this.
That obscure lawyer got told to do and say what he did, with whoever it was knowing that it would have exactly this effect on certain screaming meemies.
So why the need to discredit him so blatantly (and so far so utterly unprovably)? Dani doesn’t even know for sure Marty did it.
I do know this though, if I was Marty and someone that was supposedly my friend was that easy to throw in question about me I would know two things immediately. 1. They already made up their mind or they wouldn’t be asking me 2. Any answer I would give wouldn’t be believed anyway. I probably wouldn’t have answered his email either, if I was Marty.
Everyone has (or at least I hope they do) at least one person in the world that nothing and no one could turn against them. Some have more than one. I do. These people are so trustworthy that I would have a totally different reaction than what you see Dani and Tony doing about that court event. I would know that it is a deliberate attempt to break us apart.
I wish I could speak to Marty’s character that way, but I don’t really know him that well, but I would have hoped that someone that calls themselves his friend wouldn’t be so easily swayed.
I would have had my lawyer demand the provenance proof of this email – just to watch them sweat if nothing else.
it doesn’t sound like Dani lifted one finger to even TRY to defend Marty and that really sucks. He just jumped right to the convenient conclusion, and publicly too, that it is patently obvious was the ENTIRE point of the whole email show in the first place.
Anyway, hope you don’t mind my mini-rant but I felt like this needed to be said.
Look at this Alanzo. This was written by Marty while he was still well in the midst of the lawsuit. August 2014.
(I’ll put the link at the bottom)
“Folks who have been following the journey I have been sharing on this blog and in my books over the past five years might want to know something about a subject that I have not mentioned in quite some time. I probably will not mention it again. But, I interrupt the flow of the discourse here for this brief message in the interest of giving a balance to the picture of the direction that I have been sharing. When events of 2015 are in full roar I don’t want people to get the idea that all I have written over the past two years was some sort of diversionary ruse.
I have practiced what I have been sharing.”
“…in order to increase the ability to confront sufficient to truly face the unknown, one must exercise proficiency in overcoming major sources of oppression. It has to do with ascendency of power over force and the art and science of critical point analysis application.
Work along that line must necessarily not be broadcast for the foreseeable future. Thus, none of what I refer to here has been disclosed anywhere, not even to my closest friends. It has nothing to do with any current legal proceedings and is unrelated (as am I) to the scientology infotainment lampooning industry (whose main useful purpose is attention distraction). If you hear rumors or ‘inside skinny’ about what this parallel work entails, you are hearing lies or the imagination of someone still caught in the scientology hallucinatory cause syndrome.
In the interim, I inform you that nothing about any of this is inconsistent with what I have written over the past two years. Just as certainly, many spectators will be sure that is not the case when they witness that 2015 and 2016 make 2009 and 2010 look like child’s play.”
Looks to me like he IS up to something. What do you think? I mean he laid it all out right there that the events of 2015 and 2016 were going to be used by spectators to talk about Marty’s “inconsistency”.
That’s where they’re all beating the drum right now on, isn’t it?
I think my other reply got et.
Check this out Alanzo – see what you think now that we see what all has gone on.
Miscavige has a billion dollar bankroll at his disposal. He could harass Mark and Monique for the rest of their lives.
Trying guess the motivation of someone you don’t know is futile and fairly arrogant. That said, Rathbun’s final denunciation of the coercive nature of $cientology is the best indication of Marty’s mindset at that time. I don’t know how to process the Lemburger email leak. But I am looking forward to any solid info on what is really going on.
Marty Rathbun has one huge ace in the hole. If he were to write a tell all book about his time in upper management and come clean on the the Lisa McPherson case and many of the black bag jobs he did, he’d take the current Leah Remini hurricane and take it to a whole new clambake level.
Or was his silence bought when he escaped years ago? If so, how did he ‘get away’ with his blog all those years? There are too many questions that need answers. Will we ever get them?
Ze Mooo –
I’m with you on the fact that there are too many questions that need answers. Even after all Marty has accomplished as a critic for the time he was out, real answers for people who have been harmed still haven’t been provided. That’s one reason why my attention goes straight to Mike Rinder.
If Marty can just disappear because he doesn’t “give a damn any more” then so can Mike. He can leave Gerry Armstrong flapping in the wind, and all the other old guard critics who have never seen any kind of justice for the fair game they endured. Don’t get me wrong, both these guys have been very productive and have accomplished more than almost anyone – while standing on the shoulders of the critics who came before them.
While recognizing all that Mike and Marty have accomplished, I do not want them to get away before they have confronted the people that they have harmed. And it would not be all that big of a deal. Like the end of the movie “The Lives of Others”, they just need to detail what was done to each one.
And by the way, welcome to Alanzo’s Blog! It is an honor to host your comment here!
I orderyou to eat crows. I don’t understand you missed the obvious Facts:
– Dani lemberger is a Lrh and Ksw fanatic and is making lots of Money with selling Scientology
– Marty denounced some years ago Dani for still selling the fata Morgana of Scientology
– Dani lost because of this a huge amount of potential customers
– Ergo, Marty became an ennemy per Kswand Ethics Tech
– Dani settled in court with C.O.S, but neither Ortega or Dani are informing about this Settlement and if Money changed Hands
– Marty didn’t settle with the C.O.S in court and there are no data about a secret Settlement, but only wild speculation…
bon appétit and please post the Pictures about eating crows !
Excellent points, Roger.
Funny how there’s no speculation from Tony Ortega, or any of the Bunkerites, about Dani Lemberger, and what he has to do as part of his settlement with the Church.
Looks like I’ll be eating two crows.
Why hasn’t Tony reported anything about Dani Lemberger’s lawsuit – accept to use it as “proof” against Marty Rathbun? Tony usually reports on such things.
He says he had a “special correspondent” in the courtroom and everything.
Why the silence here?
I do believe that this is what L Ron Hubbard might call an “outpoint”.
Zoom! Right over my head!
I’m happy you got it. Seems that “divide and conquer” is being applied ruthlessly and at the end I think only “money” matters.
Most involved big players deploy an unbelievable rightist attitude and an arrogance that is beyond my understanding.
It seems that Scientology attracted a certain Kind of People with the same character and some innocent sheeps. Whatever those people do in their life, they still have the same character. It doesn’t matter if they are Scientologists, independents or whatever..Their behaviour will always be the same….in or out or as critic…
Marty gets accused for a secret Settlement by people that did settle and don’t talk about it LOL…
I’m nearly fully out of this game, as more I look at it, more insane it seems by all parties involved..
and I think and hope that Marty came to the same conclusion in moving up and doesn’t wanna talk anymore as whatever he says will just cause speculations. Why bother ?
The Players can go on for years in this insanity and not move up a Little bit higher…
Also I don’t understand all the upsets about disconnection and the poor victims of it. When I read the stories I see many people, families etc…that weren’t really caring about each other. When I got out I took my whole Family with me and I planned it thorougly, so no disconnection occured and finally we trust each other and there was love and understanding for a life time. I think most of the people that are suffering because of disconnection would have without Scientology other Family Problems they could lament about. I know I’m a Little bit harsh but if I look around I see millions of families that hold together but also lots of families that have big Troubles, even without Scientology or other Religion. It’s a maztter about how you raise you children and what relationship you have with your friends and Family. I know that my Kids would have disconnected from me if I wouldn’t really have cared about them, they would have if i would have beaten them as a child, also without Scientology….So I don’t think they ever be able able to reconnect as Long as they can’t reflect on their own behaviour and just think they are a victim of disconnection….
Have a nice day and enjoy your freedom..
I agree with the heart of what you are saying about the trotted out disconnection stories, but not with the oversimplification of why people are disconnected from. Not that what you say couldn’t or doesn’t happen, it’s that I don’t think you should underestimate the manipulation that *can* be done as part of black ops there. But even in that case, for it to be agreed with and for letting it work – that would definitely fall on the child’s shoulders (assuming we are talking about adult children).
But still, I too was sickened by the disconnection stories that I know *are* what you describe, the person was actually at fault in some way.
Its the tarring them all with the same brush in either direction, it’s all their fault, or it’s all scientology’s fault, that I object to.
If it is true and a given that Karen etc. are running the Hubbard/Intelligence apparatus playbook, do you remember the How to Handle Black Propaganda PL? I have noticed that whoever is driving that bus over there likes to do what I call a set up and spike. For example, you raise a good point (and a weakness in their narrative) about why isn’t he reporting on the settlement aspect, and within days? There’s Tony interviewing Dani about it.
That’s supposed to “shoot holes” in your credibility, you see.
The problem is that I have noticed that their fuse is running shorter and shorter, which makes it easier to see the set up and spike. Meaning the distance in time between the set up and spike is too close together.
As Karen liked to yell at you, you said…Intelligence must begin and end COVERTLY. Something or someone(s) has got them moving too fast which is getting closer and closer to NOT SO COVERTLY.
Could be simple oversight on their part too, but I just thought a little reminder of what these true believers in the whole Hubbard intelligence and PR game actually operated from, and may very well STILL operate from, could offer a more rounded perspective.
Dani Lemberger IS NOT Lrh or Ksw fanatic. He is in the belief that there are tens of invented OT levels.
Who sued who about what in the Co$ vs. the Israeli scn center? What was the outcome?
Tony Ortega covered it in 2014.
Thanks, Al. I only started reading and participating on the scn blogs after watching Going Clear. Your blog, Mike’s and Marty’s were extremely helpful to me in sorting out the pluses and minuses from my scn participation over 30 years ago. An amazing amount of scn history has occurred over those years. Thanks again.
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