toxic and corrosive

The Top 5 Most Toxic & Corrosive Things About Being an Ex-Scientologist

After being an Ex-Scientologist for 22 years, I’ve identified what I think are the top 5 things that, over time, become the most toxic and corrosive things about being an Ex-Scientologist. I’m pretty sure most all Ex-Scientologists have experienced these. And the more ex members of other “cults” I get to know, such as ExJWs, ExMormons, and Ex Nxians, the more I realize how universal these are for Exes of all ‘cults’.

No matter what “cult” you’ve become an Ex of, the trick is to not let these destroy you.

Transcript:

So, these are my thoughts about the five most toxic and corrosive things about being an ex Scientologist.

And I realize… “why are you talking about toxic and corrosive things, Al?” Well, it’s because there are things about being an ex Scientologist that are toxic and corrosive. It’s just like chocolate, you know? If you eat enough chocolate, you’ll die. It will become toxic and corrosive. If you eat enough of it. Unfortunately, life is like that.

So the parade of rose petals that is being an ex Scientologist, well, we need to talk about it.

So, here are the five most toxic and corrosive things about being an Ex-Scientologist:

  1. Sympathy and Praise for Being an Ex-Scientologist
  2. Continually Having to Repeat the Abuse you Suffered When You Were a Scientologist.
  3. As an Ex-Scientologist Injustice – Justice Delayed is Justice Denied
  4. Stardom and Admiration for the ideas you hold or the ideas that you’ve expressed
  5. Constant Fucking Cyberbullying.

So these are the five things that, after 22 years of being an ex-Scientologist, I have identified as being toxic and corrosive.

Number one, sympathy and praise you would think that, you know, and this is L Ron Hubbard, he went all in Dianetics, he went all out about how sympathy is horrible, and you should never have sympathy. That’s NOT what I’m talking about.

This is sympathy and praise for being an ex-Scientologist, mostly by people who were never an ex-Scientologist. They were never Scientologists. They’re never-ins. They’re good people. Don’t get me wrong here. They’re very good people, but they do not get it. They don’t quite get how not serious it is to be an ex-Scientologist okay?

They, they came in wanting to help and be nice and everything. And they just can’t imagine how horrible you had it. Well, you know, it wasn’t that horrible for most people. But they don’t know that. They think it was horrible for you. And so they want to give you sympathy and praise for being an ex-Scientologist and it’s just, I don’t know, I felt it -and maybe not everybody feels it, but it’s just a little off.

You know, you go into a group of people and “oh, you brave ex-Scientologist”! What? I was in Scientology for a while now. I mean, don’t get me wrong, I have totally taken a bath in this sympathy of praise. I am not somebody who is above milking sympathy and praise as much as I can get it. Okay. I’m saying that deep down there is this corrosive part. It’s corrosive because these people don’t…. You’re, I don’t know… How do you say this? It’s not like you’re a circus animal. It’s like you’re on parade. You’re on homecoming court. You know? Tat you’re, you’re the homecoming queen. I don’t know.

But you’re being put on a pedestal for something that you shouldn’t be put on a pedestal for and you’re being given sympathy for things that, after a while, after a year or so, two years, you really don’t need sympathy for it anymore. Unless you’re really stuck. And then the sympathy and praise you get is really toxic and corrosive to you. So that’s sympathy and praise.

Another thing that’s toxic and corrosive about being an ex-Scientologist is continually repeating the abuse you suffered over and over and over again for weeks, months, years, and some people have been doing it for decades. And I’ll tell you what, man, this is the worst. This is the worst part of being an ex-Scientologist. Yes, they fairgamed me. They got me fired from my job. I mean, I have this whole schpiel about the fair game that went on with me in the late 90s and early 2000s from the Church of Scientology, and you know, I can horrify people with it. With all kinds of stuff. And, you know, that’s, that was 20 years ago, okay?

I don’t want to talk about it anymore. I don’t want to think about it. It doesn’t affect me anymore. Any damage that was done was healed a long time ago. But as an Ex Cultist, you can get into the situation where you’re trying to tell other people about how horrible Scientology is. And so you tell them your story, and you repeat over and over and over what was done to you. And because this is very toxic, this is very corrosive to a person, because you keep dredging it up.

I heard it referred to as old ghosts. And that’s it. That’s a good way to refer it. You dredge up old ghosts. And if you do that every day for years and years and years, it’s not good for you. So that’s number two, continually repeating the abuse you suffered.

Number three is justice delayed is justice denied. This is you know, there was an injustice. There was some kind of injustice for you, or for somebody else, or for a lot of your friends and you want that injustice corrected. But very unfortunately there are very few resources who are going to get that justice for you. And David Miscavige is going to do everything he possibly can to make sure that you don’t get justice, because justice mostly is him going to fucking jail. And he’s going to spend every bit of his $3 billion dollars staying out of jail. He will burn through that whole 3 billion to keep his own ass out of jail. So it’s just not likely. I mean, there’re some exes who, who definitely can get justice. Luis Garcia is one. There are many who can get justice, but there are many who can’t.

You’ll just never get justice for what was done to you. And it’s one of those things. It’s a very difficult thing to wrestle with. Having been betrayed as deeply as Scientologists have been, and other Exes have been…

But we’re not the only people who have suffered something like this. You know, there are way worse injustices than anything that happened to anybody in Scientology. Just think of being a Syrian refugee. Having your whole family bombed. Okay? I mean, really, there’s a point where injustice does exist on a scale of reality, and you need to … everyone needs to – not just ex Scientologists – every human being suffers injustice. And there’s a point where you need to deal with it and you know, recognize that it will never be corrected. This particular injustice that was done to me by the Church of Scientology will never be corrected.

So number three is justice delayed is justice denied. But for most people. It’s suck it up. And that sounds way more unsympathetic than I actually am about it. But when it comes to moving on with life… you know, not wrecking your whole life and all of your own future, this one’s a tough one. But each individual really has to do it. It just is one of those things that’s toxic and corrosive about being an ex-Scientologist.

So number four is stardom and admiration for your ideas.

So you know, right now I’m considered as some kind of an agent provocateur, or a possible OSA agent. I am lower than dirt right now in the anti-Scientology community and I have been for years. But there was a time when I wasn’t lower than dirt. Ex Scientologists, other Anti Scientologists and even never-ins, I got a lot of praise, got a lot of praise and admiration. And it was like a stardom kind of thing. And I’m not… okay, I’m just saying okay – please – that when you say something and you get known for the ideas that you’re talking about, as an ex-Scientologist, you get kind of stuck.

If you change too much. Then you begin to look like a hypocrite if you’re this big militant anti. Right? And everybody looks to you to be a big warrior fighter guy. And you get all this praise and admiration and stardom for being this big warrior, anti-Scientology guy.

And then one day you evolve, and you realize, okay, let’s say Vistaril and psych drugs. “L Ron Hubbard died with psych drugs in his body!” And you look up Vistaril and you study all about it and you realize, okay, well this is an antihistamine. This is a 1st generation antihistamine. It makes you drowsy. And psychiatrists have used it in certain applications to help a person sleep and to calm down a little bit. But a psych drug like Prozac or another actual Psychiatric drug? A first-generation antihistamine is not a psych drug. It’s an antihistamine, makes you drowsy, passes through the blood brain barrier makes you drowsy. It’s kind of a soporific. That’s it.

So you kind of realize that but you’ve been you know, you’ve made this point over and over to people and they look at you like you’re a kind of a star about how eloquent you are about the vistaril and, and LRH’s butt… And you’ve changed your mind about it. You’ve learned something about it when you change your mind but you’re a star.

See? you’re a star and people admire you. It’s like losing Twitter followers. All of a sudden you start changing your mind about what you think about various things and you start tweeting your new change of change of mind and you just watch your Twitter followers disappear.

So you don’t want to change, see? You don’t want to evolve and grow because you’ll lose all your friends. It was just like graduating from Scientology. You have evolved. You’ve graduated from Scientology, but you know that if you graduate, you’ll lose all your friends.

So wanting and needing this stardom and admiration for your ideas – it becomes toxic and corrosive for an ex-Scientologists.

Believe it or not, I you know, I’m dirt. I’m lower than dirt, like I said, right now. But there was a time when I wasn’t. And I’ll take this. Really, I really will. I’ll take being lower than dirt over being you know, a major star and being admired to the point where I can’t change my mind.

Anyway, admiration and stardom as an Ex becomes toxic and corrosive.

And then number five is constant cyber bullying. Being lower than dirt, I get cyber bullied. A lot. And comes out of nowhere for me. Like I’ll be on Reddit and I’m even under a different name than Alanzo and people come out of the woodwork to come after me because they know that the stuff I write about only Alanzo writes about. Or only Alanzo cares about it. So, this factor plagues Alanzo and really, I get like five different people telling me I’m a piece of shit. Literally. I’m not – this is the phraseology, right? And this constant cyber bullying and it’s a general environment of cyber bullying around Scientology on the internet since ARS.

ARS became cyber bullying and the reason it did was because of OSA. OSA would just get on there and cyber bully the hell out of the critics that were exposing the OT levels, getting the OT levels up to the internet, you know all that stuff. But it was kind of easy to see the trolls, the OSA trolls, there.

But later, and I have to say this, after Anonymous the cruelty and cyber bullying just skyrocketed among ex Scientologists. It’s like we just adopted the whole culture of cruelty of Anonymous and oh my god, it just became hellish. And if there’s anything that’s toxic and corrosive, it’s fucking cyber bullying.

There’s nobody, there’s nobody who’s listening to this who hasn’t been cyber bullied. That’s just the way it is. The way the internet is. It’s not just Scientology, either. It’s almost every subject. It’s Democrats, Republicans, water beds versus air beds. It’s dogs versus cats. Cyber bullying is everywhere.

And the more you engage in it, the worse it gets, the more toxic and corrosive it becomes.

So, these are the five most toxic and corrosive things about being an ex-Scientologist.

Over and out.

81 thoughts on “The Top 5 Most Toxic & Corrosive Things About Being an Ex-Scientologist”

  1. That was George M. White who used to post as “Path of Buddha” who made that comment on Marty’s blog about two years ago. He also mentioned that Buddha had many enemies. Parents accused him of stealing their sons. The existing religious order hated him for countering their doctrines. He was accused of fathering an illegitimate child.

    Buddha knew not all would follow him. He told acolytes going out to spread the word, “Some will listen. Some will come.”

  2. Being an ex-Scientology is better feeling then being an independent or some “freezoner”. You know you have believed in something for years and now you managed to get out from it. I feel really bad for those freezone people and the ones that call themselves “independent scientologists”. Look for instance at the mission from Israel that has decided to continue their own way in practicing lrh scientology without the suppression of the management. But from how I see it, most of this “smartasses” that think that scientology works, and they try to do it out of the management body, are just going to become some new practice, and this people usually then practice hypnotize or being a “coacher”.

    I have read a lot about Dani and Tami Lemberger, and for sure Dani was the brave one to take himself, his wife and his staff out of the suppression of the management. I remember that someone translated for me one of Dani’s videos on Youtube, and Dani really believed lrh and said that he is following ONLY lrh as he is source etc yakee yakee yakee…..

    But then, it was posted some time ago that now Dani and Tami have started to discover the real freezone, which includes rons org in it. Both have ben at Max Hauri’s place and did some OT levels that do not exist in the “independent” field nor in lrh’s original scripts. So as you see it in the end people dont believe management and people dont believe lrh.. it is just matter of time.

    This poor people really… they need to just stop doing “scientology” and go on with their life.

    • Loco – I have mixed feelings about it. It used to bug (bother) me that that maybe I missed a mystery or mysteries by not doing the OT levels but I let that go. There will always be some adventurous souls exploring the paranormal and supernatural. Some people are going to say they’ve completed and even advanced Elron’s “work”. Good for them and good luck to them.

      There may be some miraculous new discoveries happening but in general I think this story applies. An ex scn-ist who became a long time Buddhist asked his teacher if he should make public statements refuting Hubbard’s claim to have been the Buddha. His teacher replied, “There have been thousands of these. Why bother?”

      • Richard,

        I don’t think you missed anything by not doing the OT levels, unless you have fall’in for Hubbard’s rhetoric of the OT levels being “amount of case gain”

        laughing

          • Laughter – I’ve had other non scn related samadhi type experiences. Maybe scn set me up to have them. Who knows. I think retaining some mystical notions is more fun than being an atheist.

        • Just a side note…if you subscribe to Hubbard’s theories on the e-meter and Tone Arm action, the TAA that occurs on OTIII is ridiculously high, like in the ballpark of the entire lower Bridge. I do not have a reasonable explanation for this.

          • Hey statpush – Delving into the metaphysical for a moment here’s a wild guess. How about a “karmic discharge” triggered by considering a generality or generalities in the universe which Elron perceived through his own filters and made specific in his OT3 narrative.

            It might be similar to someone praying “Dear God help me” and perceiving a universal intelligence through their cultural filters as Jesus, Krishna, The Holy Ghost or whatever.

            Going into the metaphysical and assuming everlasting existence then everyone would have experienced one or more cosmic or planetary cataclysms. I’ll smoke a few joints and get back with the answer later – haha. In the meantime it was just a massive release of chemicals in the brain caused by even considering a disaster like OT3.

            On a channeling tape I once listened to a group of OTs was grilling an entity about whether OT3 was real or not. He simply replied, “Well, that is one of several possibilities . . . ” and went on to expound about other possibilities in the “theta universe”. laughter – Always more questions than answers.

            • It is some trippy shit when you think about it. What’s remarkable is (whatever IT is), is that Hubbard discovered/invented a phenomenon that could be detected, measured, observed and practised by many people. That’s pretty unique, even though I don’t fully understand it.

          • Statpush- I noticed the same thing on OT3. Massive several division Tone Arm blowdowns that matched the physically-sensed mental phenomena occurring.

            Something is happening when one does that OT 3 process.

            I utterly reject LRH’s mythology of Xenu and that whole backstory.

            If you were told an automobile functions because of controlled gasoline explosions under the hood, or if you were told there were thousands of squirrels running on little wheels that powered the vehicle, no matter which you believed, the car would still move down the road when you pressed down on the accelerator.

            I have yet to come across a satisfactory explanation of the mental phenomena surrounding the running of OT 3 on oneself.

            Although I’ve fully moved on, and am not stuck on this, I do have a lingering interest in what might be the “real” explanation.

            Hey Alanzo, maybe open the table for discussion of this at some point with an opening post about it some time?

            • Or you can write one, and I’ll post it!

              I agree that we do not have an adequate explanation for the behavior of the emeter during any auditing, let alone OT3. Neither critics’ nor LRHs’ explanations make sense.

      • Richard,

        You shouldn’t have mixed feelings about this.

        The point here is that I know that there is a difference between the “independents” and “freezoners” Exes, and it always seems that the Exes that leave the Church, tend to go and be an “indie” and later on goes onto some invented technology which is delivered in the ron’s org, and this is exactly what Dani & Tami Lemberger are doing now. This is weird as I remember that the Lemberger couple used to follow lrh tightly, and now it seems they stray away.

        You can read in the Israeli independent website about how they follow lrh and ‘standard technology’, and now the rest of their crew (Carmela Weizman, Moti Weizman, Aviv Bershadsky, Don Schaul, Dima Dubinin, Lari Hazanovich), are probably confused if to follow the rons org technology or lrh technology.

        I foresee a dispute in this array of activity.

        • The last I heard from a friend who does services at Dror Center in Israel was that they do deliver Excalibur, which is tech from Ron’s Org. However, the Lembergers still fully believe in LRH tech and apply it strictly on the Scientology bridge up to OT VIII.

          • “the Lembergers still fully believe in LRH tech and apply it strictly on the Scientology bridge up to OT VIII”

            How can you strictly follow LRH tech, and deliver Excalibur?

            Excalibur is an altered OT 8, and is not LRH. But leave that out, you have up to OT 40 something in Ron’s Org, and from what you write, Dani & Tami Lemberger are now part of Ron’s Org??? What happened to “standard tech”?

            I believe in tech that is purely LRH and not something that someone who was an ex-Church member has invented (Captain Bill Robertson).

            I saw some cases of people who were doing the CBR Bridge, with all this invented crap, and their minds were messed with, and you DONT want to know their condition today…

            So I suggest that you tell your friends to watch out from anything that is not LRH.

            • I would also add that you should watch out for a lot of things that are LRH, too.

              Like:

              Fair Game
              OSA Network Orders
              The Truth Rundown

              Just because it’s from LRH doesn’t mean that it is safe or even workable. You have to rely on yourself to use critical thinking and not become so loyal that you blind yourself to the harm that parts of 100% standard tech can do, too.

              Welcome to AlanzosBlog, семь ножей!

              • Hello Alanzo and thanks. I see what you are saying. I know the good things that REAL tech does, as it worked for me and helped me. What you are writing are things that are being misapplied.

                The point I am trying to understand is how come such group of Dror Center, which consists of Dani & Tami Lemberger, Aviv Bershadsky, Dima Dubinin, Viktoria Severin and others which I dont remember the names of – are now aiming for OT 9-48 which was invented by Captain Bill Robertson.

                Being independent is one thing, but going off to practice this weird stuff that messes with your mind is totally off for me.

                I keep getting emails from succes stories from Viktoria Severin, about people who are having success in Dror Center, but now I am starting to think that I am being fooled, and that they are not real standard technology. This is scary as I had stable datum, and now I don’t and I am looking for answers on the internet, and I have read everything, and everything leads to “Ron’s Org” and this crazy invented “OT48” stuff.

                Do you have any knowledge in that? in the Dror Center group? as for me, up to several weeks ago it was the promising place to go OT, but no with all this weird stuff I have my own doubts, and so as others.

                Anyways, thanks for running this blog, and giving the opportunity to ask questions and understand things.

            • семь ножей: “How can you strictly follow LRH tech, and deliver Excalibur?”

              I didn’t mean that Excalibur is LRH tech. I specified that with respect to the LRH Bridge up through OT VIII, they strictly follow the tech.

              They do consider that Excalibur is also workable tech. Personally, I agree with their approach – in my view, there is no reason to slavishly believe that only LRH was capable of developing workable tech, even though it may very well be true that in his time there was no other workable tech.

              In actual fact some of the LRH tech was developed by others, based on the fundamentals LRH discovered. And I get that Excalibur is also based on LRH’s fundamentals.

              In any case, no one needs to be a slave to someone else’s point of view regardless of who it is. Look for yourself and be your own “orientation point” (LRH’s term) – that’s what LRH himself advised.

              Anyway, I’m sure if you asked the Lembergers about their delivery of Excalibur, they would be more than willing to be in comm with you about it.

              • So what is the point of “Keeping Scientology Working”. Why cant there be places that deliver ONLY LRH technology, and other places that deliver the other invented things?

              • “Anyway, I’m sure if you asked the Lembergers about their delivery of Excalibur, they would be more than willing to be in comm with you about it.”

                I kind of gave up getting service from the Lembergers. It now feels to me like a fraud. I have seen what happened to people that were doing this outragous invented – OT Levels, I am telling you – their mind was messed with just like lab rats. There is no way I am going to be a lab rat.

                I am sure that Aviv Bershadsky and Dima Dubinin are not fully aware of the Lemberger’s plan for creating the “next” invented Bridge. This just becomes a criminal game. Instead of really helping people, they try to invent service-list which will probably give them a lot of cash.

                Sorry…

                • семь ножей: “I am sure that Aviv Bershadsky and Dima Dubinin are not fully aware of the Lemberger’s plan for creating the “next” invented Bridge.”

                  Where did that datum come from?

                  I haven’t heard anything about the Lembergers delivering all the Ron’s org OT levels – just Excalibur. There’s also an independent group in the state of Idaho that delivers the standard LRH Bridge plus Excalibur, but no other Ron’s org OT levels, as I know from what I last heard.

                  Again, though, you should talk directly to the Lembergers. See if my idea is right that Excalibur is based on Scientology principles about the mind and beings. The rundown might even come from a lecture where LRH described it as a potential auditing procedure, although he himself never got around to developing it. I think this is the type of thing independent auditor Robert Ducharme discovered and majorly applies in his auditing. (Ducharme can be found in freezone articles and elsewhere if you Google his name.)

                  In any case, “When in doubt, communicate.”

                • marildi,

                  I read in wwp forums a quote from Rons Org website that they established a branch in Israel, and from all the discussions I have with local Israelians and others, there are only 2 independent groups in Israel, one is small and other is Dror. So if I trust what I read, they are part of Ron’s Org, if I mistake excuse me.

                  About Excalibur – for me if its not LRH then I don’t want to practice it. I had great experience with LRH tech only back in the time, and that is the only thing I want to receive.

                  I do think that Dror should follow only LRH, and if they do anything else then LRH, then for me its not worth it and it is a shame.

                • Thanks for posting this, Virginia. That Captain Bill guy was all over the place. I scanned over some of the “processes” which are referred to near the end of the article. If somebody figures out how to make it workable with actual stable demonstrable gains I’ll check it out – next lifetime!

                  It was just a quick glance,15 minutes or so, but it seems he might be calling each process an OT level. Maybe a Captain Biller will show up with a success story. Someone did just that on Mike Rinder’s Terra Cognita post two weeks ago. The beat goes on.

                • This is exactly what I am saying. So imagine this invented “OT Levels” that are being delivered under the goose of “Independent Scientologists” in the Dror-Center facilities in Israel. I don’t like that.

                • Wow, you really took the time to write this. How come you are really interested in the Israeli field (Shafi Gibon, Dani & Tami Lemberger).

                  Do you believe that what Dani & Tami are doing is survival for us or not?

                  I think its getting too extreme (in the negative sense of the word) to do the invented technology of the Ron’s Org.

                  What is your opinion on that?

                • Hey семь ножей,

                  I made this post over on Tony Oretga blog today, it something to think about. Shouldn’t all these clears and OT’s who left the COS under DM, shouldn’t they join Ron’s Org or freezone or the Lembergers or Indie in the USA?

                  Avatar
                  Gib • an hour ago
                  Here’s something to think about and include, where are all the “clears” & “OT’s” from day one? Are they still involved or left? Why?

                  Shouldn’t all these “clears” be on staff helping the Idle Morgue’s reach Old St Hill Size? How come they ain’t?

                  Some stats, click auditor mag number to see names:

                  https://www.truthaboutscien…

                • Gib, it does not matter. Whoever is Clear or OT and stays that way within or out of the Church is fine I guess.

                  But why should this independent groups turn to be Ron’s Org group – as Ron’s Org is just a lie. How can you call an organization on the name of Ron (L. Ron Hubbard), while you do not apply the original technology of L. Ron Hubbard???

                  I am telling you, it is a money-machine, which I am not sure how well it goes for them (for Ron’s Org).

                  You either deliver original standard LRH tech, or you do something totally else (you might as well do Yoga, or go to Christian Church).

                  So my answer to you is if y

        • It is known that in the broad community of the warriors against the co$ that Dani and Tami Lemberger are just little pawns, and that they are being urged and forced to commit “supressive acts” against co$ and against their own followers.

          So I suggest to you my friend to just let go of hurvard technology once and for all, and for sure do not get near the Lembergers.

          • “It is known…”?

            Specifically what is known? And who are “they” who know all this? You need to state your sources or it’s just gossip.

          • Are you speaking about Tony Ortega, Mary Rathbun, Mike Rinder?

            Because I am sure these 3 are just using Dani for their own revenues.

  3. HI Alanzo,
    I like these broadcasts, they allow me to go on working while still listening, in addition they convey your thoughts on the subject more clearly than written words do.

  4. I left the CoS in 1982 without damage and even considered continuing scn at David Mayo’s group in Santa Barbara. I think the scn experience comes down to three major factors.

    When you participated, which might be generalized as before and after the death of LRH, although some people have other demarcation points.
    In what capacity you participated, from sea org to never-staff public.
    How long you participated, from a few years to a greater part of a lifetime.

    I followed the 1970 Grade Chart which remained unchanged, as least as I recall, until the release of Dianetic Clear around 1980. Some people want to pick a definition of clear and say it’s bullshit. For me it was a realization that anything in my past couldn’t affect me in the present. Poof – the bubble burst. My co-auditor said “Locate an incident of . . . ” (a previously reading item). I replied “Joe, it’s just a joke – there’s nothing there!” Off to attest.

    I’d say it’s no sacrosanct state of awareness unique to scn but it worked for me. Other people have the same reality whether from a practice, belief or their viewpoint of life in general. Scn as the only path to freedom has obviously been discarded by most people.

    Anything I disagreed with in scn it was “Yeah, okay” and let’s get on with the show. Paul Haggis said he thought OT3 was nonsense but he let it slide since he wanted to see what came next. He didn’t say if he tried auditing “his BTs”. Factually, most of the human race believes in disembodied beings but that’s a different topic.

    P.S. marildi – I doubt that Alanzo wants to go into lengthy debates about the hundreds of specifics of scn “tech”. Just sayin

    • It’s easy to target Hubbard or the church about such things like Clear or the State of OT. Not all of it is unjustified. They don’t do themselves any favors, with their wild hyperbole.

      I did the full NED program and loved it. Going Clear was intensely profound…whatever it was. Did it fit the 1950s definition? Of course not. Am I glad I did it? Absolutely.

      They just can’t allow themselves to say “do this program for 50-60 hours and something special will happen. It is uniquely personal and you won’t regret it.” Instead, its over-hyped, boarding on fraud.

      In that respect, they cause their own problems.

    • By the way, I believe Haggis, as well as Jon Atack, “finished” OTIII in something like a week. Which means, they didn’t do the level. This is not a promotion of the OT Levels, it’s simply putting their comments into context.

      • Good post, statpush.

        One of the first comments I ever posted on Marty’s blog (2009) was on his post about Paul Haggis leaving the church and stating that he had basically just gone along with the program but didn’t really believe in the OT levels. My comment was to the effect that Haggis was a big celeb and I would have expected the RTC Reps to have watched over him closely (the kind of thing I had wtinessed them doing at Flag). Some of the other posters thought I was indirectly accusing Marty of not handling Haggis (and proceeded to pile on) – but in the end Marty, like a good auditor, just answered the question. He said he doesn’t audit people who don’t want auditing. That’s some additional context on Haggis’ comments.

    • Good comment, Richard.

      You added this at the end: “P.S. marildi – I doubt that Alanzo wants to go into lengthy debates about the hundreds of specifics of scn ‘tech’. Just sayin”

      I have no problem with that, and it wasn’t my intention. My original comment on this thread was to ask Alanzo if he would be concerned about admitting there is “substantial truth and workability to Scientology,” if it meant losing his followers. Then I tried to communicate what “substantial” would entail by narrowing the question to lower bridge auditing – not, as you wrote, to “hundreds of specifics of scn ‘tech’.” I guess Alanzo indirectly answered the question when he validated statpush’s comment below regarding his (statpush’s) personal wins.

      • Just as a historical note, Dianetic auditing came before the grades on the 1970 Grade Chart. I trained as a Dianetic auditor at the Salt Lake City Mission, went to LA and did an internship, and then returned to Salt Lake and worked part time as a staff auditor. Any snags which occurred, of which there were few, were handled by a higher classed auditor with correction lists. There was a formality about it, keeping things “standard” with high integrity, which I never interpreted as being indoctrinated.

        • “Any snags which occurred, of which there were few, were handled by a higher classed auditor with correction lists.”

          My experience is very similar. Few snags – and I would add that the snags were always handled by the higher classed auditor. This is why it’s hard for me to not believe auditing is workable for at least the majority.

  5. “4. Stardom and admiration for your ideas become toxic and corrosive to you.”

    By the same token, if you were to decide there is substantial truth and workability to Scientology, would you be concerned about admitting it and losing your followers?

    This is the kind of thing Marty has done – going from pro-tech to anti-tech and, unless I’m mistaken, back to pro-tech now, or at least having no problem with it when it’s done right.

    • You don’t ping-pong.

      You continually learn and evolve. It’s not a matter of being pro scientology like you were in the Church, learning everything about the ways Scientology is flat out wrong, and then get out of the Church and be anti. And then unlearn everything you learned about how wrong Scientology was and now you’re pro again – just like you were in the Church.

      If you evolve there is no “flip-flop” or “ping-pong”.

      You graduate from each position. First you graduate from being pro, like graduating from kindergarten.

      Then you graduate from being anti, like graduating from 6th grade.

      You don’t ping pong back down into kindergarten again. You graduated from that, remember? You move on to high school.

      I think, Marildi. That you are stuck on the idea that the only thing wrong with Scientology is that people don’t understand it properly. And I think that is simply not true.

      A very proper understanding of Scientology, exactly as Hubbard wrote it, shows where Scientology is flat-out wrong. Once you see that, you never go back.

      • “You don’t ping-pong.”

        Of course not, Al. I guess I have to keep making it very, very clear that I’m talking about the core practice itself, i.e. the tech, the applied philosophy of Scientology – not the church. After all these years, you are one person who should know that about me by now. 🙄

        Let’s face it, the anti’s – even the former anti’s – have conflated the different meanings of the word “Scientology” for so long that it has become a blind spot they can’t see past. I don’t think they even know they do it most of the time.

        It should have been obvious that I didn’t mean a person would go back to being a “true believer” in everything. Who does that?? No one!

        When I said Marty might have no problem with the tech now, I added “when it’s done right” – and by “right” I meant without the cultish administration OR the alteration of tech for ulterior motives.

        You also wrote: “I think, Marildi. That you are stuck on the idea that the only thing wrong with Scientology is that people don’t understand it properly. And that is simply not true.”

        No, that’s your assumption – probably about anybody who is pro-tech. My idea is that they either don’t understand it properly OR it isn’t applied properly. That’s my educated guess. I can’t prove it, of course. But neither can you or anybody else disprove it – since there have been no valid studies.

        But what I base my views on is my own experiences and what I have observed, relatively up close, of others’ experiences – in a number of different orgs and with regard to at least a majority of people.

        What do you base your views on? Is there any piece of tech you know of that does not work at least the majority of the time on at least a majority of people, according to your direct or indirect observations?

        And does any other betterment practice have a better record than that – success a majority of the time? If not, why don’t you say so? Or are you stuck on the idea that “Scientology doesn’t work”?

        If you can, please give me an example of a specific piece of tech that your direct or indirect experience (i.e. yours or another’s) told you is not workable at least a majoirty of the time. I’m sincerely interested. I have nothing to lose and can only gain by having such an example pointed out to me in a coherent, cohesive way.

        • Not much time this morning but here’s one to get you started: the tech in the hcob called “Critics of Scientology”.

          That tech produces disastrous results every time it is applied.

          • Two things about that “HCOB” –

            1.It was issued as an HCOB after LRH’s death. Directly under the title is the following notation:

            “(Originally issued as an article in Ability 199 on 5 Nov. 67. Issued as an HCOB on 27 Aug. 87.)”

            In other words, it originated as a magazine article and was not elevated to the status of HCOB by LRH but by others.

            2.The key sentence in the issue is the following (emphasis in caps of the verb forms is mine):

            “Every time we HAVE INVESTIGATED the background of a critic of Scientology, we HAVE FOUND crimes for which that person or group could be imprisoned under existing law.

            The verb forms indicate LRH was talking about what had been occurring – not necessarily what would always occur. And the examples of “crimes” that that had been found include:

            “Wife B howls at her husband for attending a Scientology group. We look her up and find she had a baby he didn’t know about.”

            More significantly, there are other issues – uncontested HCOB’s or HCOPL’s – that describe how criticism can be caused by false data, mishandling of the “critic,” etc. These issues clearly indicate that not all critics are criminals.

            In any case, let’s keep the question simple: Do you know of any lower bridge (below OT levels) auditing tech that isn’t workable the majority of the time?

            For the sake of this discussion, let’s stick to lower bridge auditing since many highly trained tech people have stated that for decades there has been out-tech in the OT levels as delivered in the CoS (for example, the solo NOTS 6-month “refreshers”).

            • Do you know of any lower bridge (below OT levels) auditing tech that isn’t workable the majority of the time?

              The Truth Rundown

              • Contact assist
                Doubt Formula, as written
                Power Formula, as written
                One shot Clear
                3rd Party Law (as written)
                PTS/SP Technology (as written)
                Misunderstood word technology, as written with over the top absolutist statements like “The ONLY reason a student gives up a study, becomes confused, or unable to learn is because he or she has passed word that was not fully understood.”
                The Sunshine Rundown

          • Jeeze, don’t you guys know what auditing is – and what auditing actions are on the bridge? Most of the dozen or so actions you listed are not on the bridge – and some of them aren’t even auditing.

            My question was specifically about (1) “lower bridge (below OT levels) AUDITING tech” and (2) which of those actions “isn’t workable the MAJORITY of the time.”

            There were only two actions you named that are on the bridge – the Sunshine Rundown and Clear Certainty Rundown. I do recall people having trouble with the CCRD – but was it actually the majority? As for the Sunshine Rundown, I haven’t heard of people having trouble with it – let alone a majority of them. (I personally had a big win on it with a floating TA.)

            In any case, since no mention was made of any of the Grades or NED – which are the major part and essence of the lower bridge – apparently you aren’t disputing their workability. That’s a large body of tech that has workability for the majority of pcs. This is something that should be known rather than left out while listing the criticisms. As you (Alanzo) have been saying, it’s a part of the truth about Scientology, And the whole truth is what will set us free.

            • I’ll voice my opinion.

              The lower bridge from intro auditing all the way up to grade IV (the lower bridge) doesn’t produce the stated EP’s. Although I would probably state something like one can get an improvement in such abilities to be had in each step.

              But ultimately, sorry Atomical, I’m repeating myself, there are no clears or OT’s so such auditing actions are bullshit with that in mind. While I’m glad folks got wins or an improvement, I did myself, ultimately it’s a pipe dream the clear and OT, hence dianetics and scientology are bullshit, a false religion of hope, science, philosophy.

              • Gib: “While I’m glad folks got wins or an improvement, I did myself, ultimately it’s a pipe dream the clear and OT…”

                That’s true if you’re talking about the original definitions. But as a result of additional research, the definitions had to be changed. To my mind, the original definition of Clear was more like a Cleared Theta Clear(!), at least in some ways. In the beginning, it was the ultimate for LRH. However, the current definition of Clear is actually achievable – and there are many Clears who are very happy with it: “A being who no longer has his own reactive mind.”

                With regard to OT, many tech-trained people have pointed out that the upper OT levels have been altered in the CoS. Besides, the levels up to OT VIII are pre-OT levels – with OT VIII as the first actual OT level.

                The ability gained of OT VIII is this: “Handles the primary reason for amnesia on the whole track” – yet critics of it never seem to take into consideration the word “primary.” To me, the ability to handle “just” the PRIMARY reason – i.e. not ALL the reasons for amnesia on the whole track – would still be quite a gain in OT ability. So it makes sense that it would be called the FIRST actual OT level.

                But aside from any of the above, it’s clear that people are different with respect to what Dianetics and Scientology deliver. Some are happy to have gotten the wins they got and consider those wins to be very worthwhile. For others, like yourself, it’s a matter of “all or nothing at all.” Obviously, that’s your right.

                • Marildi,

                  “what you consider is what you consider”, that’s a line from Hubbard’s Phoenix Lectures

                  I have come to the consideration, or conclusion, that no clears or OT’s exist in the COS or Indie field via Hubbard’s tech or off shoots such as the Free Zone, no matter any definition of clear or OT by Hubbard by you or anybody else.

                  That’s what I now consider. I have researched this much.

                • Marildi, to answer your question, I’ve researched pretty much everything from the unknown Heinlein/Hubbard letters and Campbell/Heinlein letters before the release of Dianetics, all the critical books, pretty much all of OCMB and ESMB before Marty and Mike even hit the scenes, Arnie’s website, Alanzo’s posts on ESMB, Idenics and that history, pretty much a lot.

                  Anyways, my research is also coupled with knowing a lot of people who have done the entire bridge to total freedom, maybe 20 or more of them, all from the 1970’s period and forward.

                  There are two things I pretty much applied when I started to do a proper due diligence on hubbard, dianetics and scientology which where Hubbard’s words actually, those were

                  1. The hardest outpoint to spot is the missing

                  2. Look don’t listen

                  If it were up to me, I’d probably state something like this to reform scientology which is I’d probably state something like for each EP of the Grade Chart, I’d state something like “you might get an improvement” in communicating, in problems, in upsets, in doing new things, in being more causative in life, and so on.

                  But, oh boy, to listen to Hubbard tell these things and pick out the thruth’s is a slow boat to hell! If one were to a reform as I say. But then again it ain’t scientology.

                • Gib, I have to admit you’ve researched a lot. But it looks like almost all your sources were critics of Scientology – although there are many inactive ex-Scn’ists and active independents who are highly positive about their experiences.

                  I wish I could remember where Hubbard described what happens when someone promises to help and then doesn’t accomplish the help – the person promised is going to be furious about it (paraphrased, but that was the concept). Is this what happened to you?

                • Marildi-

                  Seeing things the way Ron says to see them, especially seeing things that have to do with disagreeing with or leaving Scientology, is a big mistake.

                  Ron liked to explain the causes of things in self-serving ways. He waged an ideological onslaught on people to get involved in and loyal to Scientology and stay involved and loyal.

                  You can not trust his explanations for why people leave or become disabused with Scientology. You have to at least consider other reasons than the ones Ron gave you. And you must trust yourself to be able to see those other reasons accurately.

                  Often the true explanation has no lrh reference to back it up at all – and might even, god forbid, violate one!

                  You have to have the courage and self confidence to violate an lrh reference with your thinking.

                • “Seeing things the way Ron says to see them, especially seeing things that have to do with disagreeing with or leaving Scientology, is a big mistake.”

                  That’s a thought-stopper.

                  “Ron liked to explain the causes of things in self-serving ways. He waged an ideological onslaught on people to get involved in and loyal to Scientology and stay involved and loyal.”

                  Another thought-stopper.

                  “You can not trust his explanations for why people leave or become disabused with Scientology.

                  Thought-stopper.”

                  And the rest of your comment is rather assuming and condescending. But I do realize your intention is to help poor little ol’ me. 😉

                  Actually, I had a realization: generalities are thought-stoppers.

                • I’d agree with your realization – generalities are thought stoppers. To the degree that you let your mind pierce the details of these generalities, is the degree to which you overcome their thought-stopping ability.

                  But those quotes you gave of mine were invitations to keep thinking. When I say that something is a “big mistake” for instance, I mean for you to keep thinking in that direction.

                  Ron didn’t allow that direction of questioning. I’m saying that, after Scientology, an Ex’s own questioning needs to go in that direction to see what they find there.

                • “But those quotes you gave of mine were invitations to keep thinking. ”

                  And my point was that you assume I need that advice.

                  Let your mind pierce the possibility that I’m as aware of those things as you are. And keep thinking in that direction. 😛 🙂

                • marildi,

                  I’m still friends with all the so called OT’s I know which are still in except for a few, and most have done the entire bridge plus the L’s. I’m not declared. I lead a double life, 007, Bond, James, laughing. I don’t talk to these folks daily, only occasionally since I have distanced myself if you will.

                  To steal a line from KSW – the only thing you can be upbraided for is no results.

                  When I look at these OT’s and compare them to a bunch of other successful “wogs” I know, I see no OT or Clear ability, truthfully. That’s from first hand experience and not from reading other critics or ex scientologists.

                  Back when Marty was posting all the coming out stories, I read all of them, some I know, some I had heard of. some I knew from some I knew having talked about them. What a web of connections. Lots of observations.

                • Thanks for the additional data, Gib. I have a better understanding of where you’re coming from.

                  Let me just say, first of all, that I couldn’t vouch for the OTs that are still in the church. According to many, the upper OT levels delivered in the CoS are altered. In addition to that, any spiritual freedom or self-determinism that pre-OT’s do gain is undermined by the church’s highly authoritarian control over them.

                  In short, OTs in the CoS are PTS and that would cause them to lose even the limited gains achieved with the altered tech (the tech is that powerful that it still produces significant gain).

                  Interesting that the OTs you know do compare to “successful” wogs. If I follow you, the OTs are no better – but no worse, either. I’m sure they at least have that much ability, i.e. higher than normal.

                  But tell me this: What would you expect to observe in a Clear or OT (keeping in mind that even OT VIII is just the first OT level – not full OT). In other words, is there a specific EP on the bridge that you feel is not achieved by pc’s or pre-OT’s?

                  Statpush brought up a relevant point – that the OT was a postulated state going back to the ’50s (“postulated” in the scientific sense). However, the actual development of the tech for OT was never fully achieved by LRH. He fell short of that goal. I believe he tried, regardless of his other motives.

                • to answer your question, marildi, I feel all the EP’s on the bridge is not achieved. As I said earlier elsewhere here on Alanzo’s blog that I feel somebody can get an improvement in all the steps of the Bridge from the lower levels as well as the pre-OT levels.

                  My spouse has done all of it, for example, freedom from overwhelm – OT3, nope not true, if fact I’m probably more even tempered than the spouse when it comes to “overwhelm” in our life experiences and I’m lower bridge. That’s just one observation.

                  I once asked the sister of the spouse, you notice any difference in the spouse since the spouse got involved in scientology, without comm lag the answer was no, not really. That was an eye opener for me to a degree.

                • Got it, Gib. Okay, rather than us getting into a big discussion about the EPs and what they mean exactly, I’ll just say again what I wrote before – the tech can’t be evaluated by what the CoS produces, due to the gross alteration and suppression.

                  Getting back to your heated and repeated statements about “no Clears or OTs,” I mentioned in an earlier reply to you that LRH himself made a statement to the effect that if a person promises to help but doesn’t do so, there will be a huge backlash (strong or violent reaction). Alanzo assumed that because I was quoting (indirectly) LRH, I wasn’t using critical thinking and that I believe everything LRH said. Not so – my only point was that it seems LRH was right where you are concerned, with regard to your view that the promises weren’t kept and your response to that.

                • marildi, there is no big discussion to be had in the EP’s, they are exactly what is to produced per the grade chart in any era of scientology and even Dianetics, and nope, they are not to be had. Your diversion from discussing it doesn’t affect me. Why not talk about it?

                  I don’t think the current COS lead by DM has altered the tech that much, there is way too much significant assigned to that by ex’s and critic’s who think clear exists. Although I do know DM has turned scientology into a money game with the IAS and his lawyers with contracts and straight donations per the law.

                  Before PTS/SP was invented, or should I say rhetorically schemed by Hubbard, why in the book Dianetics Hubbard claimed he cleared 270 or so people. I wish they would step up to plate to defend Dianetics and later scientology.

                • Gib: “I don’t think the current COS lead by DM has altered the tech that much, there is way too much significant assigned to that by ex’s and critic’s who think clear exists.”

                  Too much significance to altered tech? Even science would tell you that you can’t change variables and still expect the results to remain the same. In this case, the changed variables include not only altered tech but general suppression.

                  Nevertheless, I can see that no matter what anybody says you aren’t about to let the facts confuse you. Or spoil your pity party. 😉

                  “pity party: feeling sorry for oneself and/or seeking pity from other people.”

                • There was a time (e.g. PDC era), when Hubbard referred to the State of OT as a “postulated” state. In other words, if you followed his line of research and “axioms”, Operating Thetan was a natural conclusion. But, that was during the heady days of the 50s. The guy was on fire.

                  As time progressed, it seemed like Hubbard felt the need to commercialize his theories of OT into a consumable product. He never got there.

                  Personally, I think it was borderline fraud. But under the cloak of religion, he could practically get away with anything.

                • agreed Statpush, but also Clear was a “postulated” state, and he did monetize it, evidence being it’s still going on.

                  Gotta give credit to Hubbard for working so hard for his “postulated” states.

                  But, I say fuck you Ron, you asshole!

            • On The BRIDGE
              ———————-
              The Survival Rundown
              OT Eligibility
              CCRD
              Sunshine Rundown

              On the Grade Chart
              —————————
              Assist Auditing

              • “On the BRIDGE…”

                Yes. I missed on the first two you listed above – Survival Rundown and OT Eligibility. But I did agree that the other two were on the bridge – Sunshine Rundown and CCRD.

                In any case, I can see from your reply to Richard below that you don’t disagree with me that lower bridge actions can be very worthwhile – and, I would add, for the majority of people, basing that on my experience on various flows.

    • I wouldn’t say what Marty is doing is “ping-ponging”. What Marty is doing is LYING. He’s either lying now, or he was lying in the past. He has done a 180, contradicting sworn affidavits and other statements made in the past.

      So, it really doesn’t matter whether Marty is pro-tech or anti-tech. Marty is simply incredulous.

      This is a man who once said, “If you tell the truth, it becomes part of your past. If you lie, it becomes part of your future.”

      Wise words, indeed.

      Too bad he didn’t follow them.

  6. It’s not hard to see that these come about, given the state one is in upon exiting Scn. Often you are very isolated in a “me versus them” condition; cut-off from your normal comm lines. It almost always involves an injustice. So it’s not a surprise that you turn to the internet for information and support; where others have gone through (or going through) what you are experiencing. There is some safety in the ASC bubble.

    But once you are completely out and have lived through the trauma, what value is it to remain in the ASC? For a while, you can tell “your stories”, and hope the data will be useful. You interact and discuss and reflect. All good.

    Then what?

    Keep doing it indefinitely? Staying within the tribal boundaries? It took a few years of this, before realizing it was the same old shit, recycled week after week.

    Then occasionally, there’s a seismic shift, like Marty 2.0 or “No RPF for four years”, which may cause members to snap out of the tribal mindset and start asking the right questions.

    • For me, what’s so interesting is why anyone who went through the ordeal of being in a cult and having all that information control over you, being treated like little mushrooms – kept in the dark and fed bullshit – would ever allow that to happen to them again outside the Church?

      But they are. The “no RPF for 4 years” situation with NO ONE ever asking the question – “Hay Tony? How long have you known about this? And why have you waited until now to report this?”

      It befuddles me.

      (Actually it doesn’t. I know exactly why Tony Ortega has not reported “no RPF” for more than four years. The question is, do they know why he hasn’t?)

      • As someone who was involved for decades, when you leave Scn, there is a void. ASC initially fills that void.

        But, just like with Scn, you eventually begin to question the motivations and intentions. And, just like with Scn, everyone reaches that point differently.

        I left Scn because I could no longer support their actions and behaviours. I left the ASC because their actions and motivations no longer aligned with my own.

        Only when an Ex sees the disparity will he begin to question.

      • “I know exactly why Tony Ortega has not reported “no RPF” for more than four years. ”

        And that would be what? Please serve up this mystery sandwich.

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