What You Have to Look Away From In Order to Remain an Anti-Scientologist

Anti-Scientology

Pro Life marchers and some abortion-rights supporters at the U.S. Supreme Court on the anniversary of Roe v. Wade, on Jan. 24 , 2005. Chicago Tribune Photo by Pete Souza

Back when I used to be a Scientologist, I would look away from a lot of things in order to remain one.

Even in that little bubble, there were things that I was aware of which were “truths” that I didn’t want to look at.

For instance: I didn’t want to look at the idea that a lot of the incidents I ran in past life auditing didn’t add up. I didn’t want to look at the passages in, for instance, Science of Survival where L Ron Hubbard wrote that people “below 2.0 on the Tone Scale” should have “no civil rights of any kind.”

And I certainly did not want to look at those fanatics in the Sea Org running around in fake sailor suits screaming at me.

When I was a Scientologist, I was doing something else than seeking to live with the truth. I was being a tribal warrior. And those were some of the parts of my side of the war that I had to look away from if I wanted to keep being a Scientologist.

After I’d flipped and become an Anti-Scientologist, there were things I was looking away from there, too. And I did not allow myself to see them until I had my “Hey! Wait A Minute!” moment as an Ex and discovered the policy of Embracement.

Abortion: Pick a Side and Look Away from Half of the Truth

There are two very strong tribal elements battling against each other in the US Abortion War.

One side says that Abortion is murder. It’s actually murdering babies.

The other side says that a woman has a right to control her own body, and to make decisions about whether to become a mother.

In order for a person to remain on one side or another in this war, they must look away from the truth that the other side clings to.

The policy of Embracement would open their eyes to the truths of both sides and conclude:

ABORTION IS MURDER and A WOMAN HAS A RIGHT TO CHOOSE IT.

When you really embrace both of those ideas, you become a little bit less adolescent. You grow up a little. You realize that human life does include killing – even to eat. And a woman has a right to her own body. That means a woman has a right to kill her fetus, and no other power has the right to stop her.

It’s at that point when you realize that the existing law which limits abortion to the first trimester – a law forged in this raging battle – is probably the most rational law we could ever have on the subject.

When you accept these truths from BOTH tribes, all of a sudden, you cool out. The war goes away in your mind. And you grow up a little bit.

The same policy of Embracement applies to the Scientology/Anti-Scientology war:

Scientology is my religion and I have a right to practice it.

vs

Scientology is a criminal cult and is a matter for law enforcement.

What are both tribes looking away from in order to cling to the half-truths of their positions?

Scientology is a cult which abuses people and Scientologists have a right to practice it.

There are a lot of other things that Anti-Scientologists are looking away from, as well, in order to cling to their “side” of the truth.

Such as:

It’s perfectly legal in the United States to make-up a pack of woo-woo ideas – and outright lies – bundle them together with a bunch of socially coercive, hypnotic, operant conditioning techniques, and charge hundreds of thousands of dollars to run people through them to the point of bankruptcy. This is perfectly legal in the United States.

But there’s something else, too. Something way more important that Anti-Scientologists are looking away from, and which Ex-Scientologists have even forgotten about themselves: Your own power of choice.

When you were a Scientologist you did choose to remain one – even after seeing the abuse. All the information was available to you if you wanted to see it – if you were really seeking to live with the truth.

As a Scientologist, you CHOSE not to see it.

It’s this part of the truth which Anti-Scientologists are looking away from and which would bring them up out of adolescence. It would help raise the debate to a more adult level:

Scientology is a religious choice. And the people who get themselves involved and stay involved for years, do so knowingly and willingly.

Just as you did.

It’s their choice.

Scientology is perfectly legal, and people, knowingly and willingly, choose to practice it.

And, just as you would not want to live on a planet that was “cleared” by Scientology, I don’t think you would want to live in a society where making the religious choice to be a Scientologist was not perfectly legal, as well.

Like the grown up view that in order for us to eat we have to kill something, it’s also a grown up view that Scientologists make a religious choice to be Scientologists – a valid individual choice that they have every right to make.

These are baseline truths that you must accept as an Ex-Scientologist which pretty much deflates your ability to remain a red-faced, screaming anti-Scientologist. Fully accepting these baseline truths moderates your rage, and brings reason back in to your viewpoint. You cool out, grow up, and become more accepting of the other side’s truth, too.

There are other truths that you must look away from in order to remain an Anti-Scientologist.

Can you think of them?

60 Responses to What You Have to Look Away From In Order to Remain an Anti-Scientologist

  1. Lone Star April 5, 2017 at 9:31 am #

    To remain an Anti-Scientologist you have to ignore the fact that there are people who are leading joyful, purpose driven lives practicing Scientology. Here in my area I’m still in fairly regular contact with about four or five still ins. I’m in contact with even more with still ins I run into about once or twice a year. They are all doing well and quite happy. No, I don’t mean that they never have bad days or upsets. But they wouldn’t give up Scientology if you held a gun to their head.

    Now, I do know that these folks have a lot of debt because of Scientology. I also know that this debt will bite them on the ass some day in the future when it will not be good to have debt. (It’s never good in my book). But right now they “have no attention on it”, as they would say. Lol…

    Long story short….These particular folks are healthy, mostly happy, and doing well in their jobs, careers, and businesses. Of course they credit the tech for their happiness and success. That’s fine. I personally think they could be just as successful without Scientology, but that’s my opinion. Not theirs. I’m not threatened by their “faith” in the tech.

    Oh, and they do not regard me as the plague knowing that I gave Scientology a try and ultimately said no to it. Sure at first attempts to “reactive” me were tried. But I was never disconnected from or declared. Most anti-scientologists probably wouldn’t believe me on this. They think that only celebrities and big donors are “exempted from disconnection”.

    Mainly I just don’t fuck with them. I give them a right to live their lives and they give me the right to live mine in the manner I see fit.

    I prefer to fuck with people on these message boards and blogs instead! Lol….

    • Alanzo April 5, 2017 at 9:35 am #

      Great post, LS.

    • marie April 5, 2017 at 1:40 pm #

      Your last paragraph was hilarious! Lone Star, what do your friends know of all the recent drama of the cos? Are they familiar with Going Clear or Leah Remini?

      • Lone Star April 5, 2017 at 4:55 pm #

        Marie I think some of them are somewhat aware, but they don’t go out of their way to read anything in depth about it. Nor will they watch any news reports about it. (Remini, Going Clear, Rinder, Beghe, Rathbun suit, etc…) One still-in I know never reads or watches any news at all. Has no idea what’s going on in the world except through the IAS and CCHR sources It’s really bizarre.

    • Gib April 5, 2017 at 10:00 pm #

      maybe you should tell your scientology friends “how LRH tricked you”

      https://alanzosblog.com/how-l-ron-hubbard-tricked-you-the-scientology-ot-levels/

      • Alanzo April 5, 2017 at 10:03 pm #

        You think I don’t?

        I’m the enemy now, aren’t I, Gib?

        I have scientology friends.

        Can you see how you are seeing this? “Yer either wit us, er agin us!”

        Do you know what I mean by “tribal thinking”?

        • Gib April 5, 2017 at 10:31 pm #

          why would you think I think you are the enemy? You are not the enemy.

          Your post on How LRH tricked us is spot on and the truth.

          That is all I am saying and agree.

          • Alanzo April 5, 2017 at 11:25 pm #

            All right. But why would you ask if I was going to show it to my “scientology friends”?

            Do you think that I’m going back into scientology and that I don’t think lrh tricked anybody with the ot levels?

            I’m just curious whether you think I’m some kind of traitor now. Do you?

          • Gib April 6, 2017 at 12:04 am #

            nope, I don’t think you are some kind of traitor.

          • Alanzo April 6, 2017 at 6:51 am #

            All right, Gib. I appreciate that.

            Sometimes people don’t understand what I’m trying to do. Sometimes *I* don’t understand what I’m trying to do.

            This is a period of transition for me. I used to have a group of anti-Scientologists that I could rely on to remind me what is true. But that’s not working for me any more, and hasn’t for over a year now. I have to find my own way. And it can be a lonely business.

            I hope you can understand that.

            I believe that the truth about Scientology is both the good and the bad. And I further believe that you can not be a legitimate critic of Scientology without telling the truth about it.

            So don’t give up on me now.

            Alanzo

          • Patti April 6, 2017 at 2:20 pm #

            I think I understand, Lanzo. It’s why I had to become a mythical creature. I had to be my own project and find my own truth, which doesn’t amount to much, but it’s working for me. It’s funny. Even though I’m probably declared I feel the anti scientologists were neither more nor less judgmental or irrational as the Scientologists. I miss both groups occasionally, but I’m really experiencing a comfortable real life for the first time. I don’t want to miss any of this for any of that. Right?
            GT

          • Alanzo April 6, 2017 at 2:21 pm #

            I would say so, GT!

    • Richard April 6, 2017 at 6:30 am #

      Nice post, Lone Star. I don’t know any still-ins so I don’t have a comment about that. I’ll take you at your word that you don’t get snarky with the still-ins you know. (joke)

      I just recalled something. At times I’d return from out west to New Jersey where I’m from and get together with my oldest and best friend. I’d tell him some stuff about scn, sort of promoting it. He’d just look at me, neither nodding or saying yes or no. I guess it was a case of “no ack” was the “best ack.”

      • Lone Star April 6, 2017 at 7:09 am #

        That is pretty much what I do if the subject of Scn comes up. I give “no acks”. But it very rarely comes up anymore. I do think that some of these still-ins I know will eventually blow. Just a gut feeling. I’m not seeing any sings of “pre-blow phenomena” yet. Lol… I just made up a new condition…pre-blow phenomena. I better copyright it.

        Anyway, I think when the whole Ideal Org project comes crashing down in a way that not even the great spin meister Slappy McSavage can explain away, then there will be pre-blow phenomena followed by full blown blowing. Many still-ins have sunk a lot of their money into this Ideal scam. Gone into considerable debt over it. They’ll be devastated when the results are so obvious that it was all for naught.

        • Richard April 6, 2017 at 7:50 am #

          Laughter! Too bad you weren’t on the original Saint Hill Special Briefing Course. Your discovery “pre-blow phenomena” would have entered the scripture. “Full Blown Blowing” is also worthy of copyright protection. laughter!

          • John Doe April 6, 2017 at 9:30 am #

            That phenomenon might even show up on an emeter with a special read: PBPBD!

            Pre-blow phenomena blow down.

          • Richard April 6, 2017 at 10:05 am #

            Laughter – plus, “RED TAGGED – SEND TO ETHICS!”

    • Gib April 6, 2017 at 10:12 pm #

      that’s all Lone Star, in contact with 4 or 5, I’m in contact with about 15 and all are OT8 and have done the L’s.

      To say scientologists lead joyful lives is just looking at their PR shore story, always putting on a gleeful happy face. LOL Oh, the stories I wish I could tell, but I respect their privacy and won’t name names or tell.

      You see, I am in the sort of same boat as you LoneStar. Of course I don’t create antagonism, but I do enter in some non judgmental questions.

      Can you imagine the world being run by Scientology? Why it would be like that movie Invasion of the Body Snatchers, and in Scientology case it would be all being replicates of L Ron Hubbard, round ball bearings falling lock step in line with the tribe (or crowd) Hubbard created.

      There is no such thing called Scientology or a COS religion or an applied religious philosophy, it’s actually Hubbardology, Scientology is a shore story. Why do I make this statement. Simple, all of Scientology is being run by HCOB’s and HCO PL’s (and Hubbard secret advice’s to corporate at the time which DM follows), whether Indie or official COS . It’s all Hubbardology on how to live life.

      And the H means Hubbard, and not Scientology. I know it’s subtle, does anybody get it?

      • Alanzo April 6, 2017 at 10:19 pm #

        I get it.

      • Richard April 7, 2017 at 6:00 am #

        Here’s a bit of lock step, the Apple 1984 Super Bowl commercial

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axSnW-ygU5g

      • Lone Star April 9, 2017 at 1:37 pm #

        Well, truth be told, the still-ins I know are doing well because of me. That’s right. Me. I’ve taught them a little ritual. A ritual that helps them to procreate the unholy bastard. Very powerful. Yes, a bit squirrelly. But quite enlightening…. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6l2FEHr_Yzg

        • Alanzo April 9, 2017 at 2:05 pm #

          It bothers me when drummers don’t cross their hands over the hi hat and snare drum.

          It’s just not right!

          And I don’t care what country they’re from. The tech is the tech!

        • Richard April 9, 2017 at 8:20 pm #

          Headphones! I forgot about Ghost for a while, Thanks Lone Star! Great bedtime music. “From the Pinnacle to the Pit” – Ghost has Crowley beat by a mile.

          • Richard April 10, 2017 at 5:18 am #

            From the video – “What if man could harness the power of a god? In a sense, he would need God no longer, yes?”

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A-IoOEPbUs

          • Lone Star April 12, 2017 at 5:44 am #

            Exactly Richard! And with LRH tech you CAN harness the powah of a god! The band Ghost is a double top secret alternative route to going up the bridge! The spirit of Crowley is with them.

            Yeeeeeessssssss!! Believe.

          • Richard April 12, 2017 at 7:29 pm #

            Laughter – That video put George White on a two month toot of investigating the occult background of scn. He says he has over 200 index cards cross referencing Hubbarism and Occultism, particularly on the OT levels, and will publish his findings soon. Crowley, Madame Blavatsky and the rest of the occult crowd need to be given proper credit!

  2. Claire M Swazey April 5, 2017 at 4:27 pm #

    I’ve factor seems to be that many feel the entire subject is tainted. I get that, though to me, it’s pretty obviously untrue.

    What those ppl who feel that way are doing is to proffer the package deal mindset we see that’s so problematic in organizated religion. Ideas are just ideas and they can be singled out.

    I know Christians who’ve left their former congregations but retained their belief in Jesus. Can’t a Scn’ist do something analogous? Sure they can, and they do.

    When one is in a totalitarian cult, one has little say in anything like that. But someone who’s doing a more free form heretical thing can do it.

    There is no such thing as contagion by proximity of ideas. The ONLY way an entire belief system can be bad or worthless is if everything in it is bad, or you’re in a cult or even mainstream group that stood you from judging various ideas separately. And, yeah, there are some.

    If some dude grabs an old Phoenix Lectures , curls up on the window seat and reads it, then applied some practices from it in his life apart from any group, then that oughtn’t be a threat to anyone.

    I find that radicalized fundie critics really like to pigeonhole and shout ppl down. They really resent being told, no, this is not my stance. But they get pretty uptight when someone dies it to them or they believe that’s the case. It IS fundamentalism and I saw CofS members doing it all the time.

    How’s that work- make fun of Elfman or Alley for running roughshod on ppl re their decisions then go act the same?

    • Claire M Swazey April 5, 2017 at 6:08 pm #

      Sorry re typos- typing on a cell is hard. Anyway, should be “STOPPED you from judging” and “ONE factor”.

      • Lone Star April 5, 2017 at 7:38 pm #

        Next time try doing a reach and withdraw process with your phone. Your typing effectiveness will 10X!

  3. Claire M Swazey April 5, 2017 at 7:17 pm #

    I also like the analysis re the abortion issues.

  4. Eileen April 5, 2017 at 8:37 pm #

    Fix your analogy, Abortion is not murder!
    Your analysis of the abortion comparison needs rethinking. Murder is unlawful taking of life. “Murder” is a legal construct, meant to convey the unlawful taking of (human) life.
    The distinction is important. Murder is a legal definition. Soldiers are not considered to be murderers, although they are often killers.
    So, your essay should read: “Abortion is killing (at least of potential life), and a woman has a right to choose it” A more accurate description.
    So, what does that distinction do to the analogy?
    “Scientology is killing (at least of potential growth of an individual), and a person has a right to choose it.”
    I recognize a person’s absolute right to choose Scientology. However, as a person who has witnessed more profound improvement from other therapies and philosophies I feel sad for the person whose only option is Scientology. Just as I feel sad for any person who chooses abortion. Both choices are a death, literally and figuratively. And people find ways to move past either decision (abortion or Scientology) and build meaningful and important lives.

    • Alanzo April 5, 2017 at 8:43 pm #

      Eileen –

      I think your contribution helps to fix my analogy. So well done.

      You said:

      “I recognize a person’s absolute right to choose Scientology. However, as a person who has witnessed more profound improvement from other therapies and philosophies I feel sad for the person whose only option is Scientology.”

      I know this question is anathema in the anti-Scientology world, so I have to ask it:

      Which other therapies and philosophies have you witnessed which produce more profound improvement than Scientology?

      Alanzo

      • Eileen April 7, 2017 at 11:42 am #

        Not sure why the question is anathema. Seems like a fair question.
        From my personal experience, the “talk therapies” are often profound, especially when the therapy relationship has persisted over time. I would guess that you experienced something like that when you talked to your auditor about your father. It sounds like he (the auditor) would have had skill as a therapist. Sadly, I would guess that the credit was probably given to auditing or LRH. Do you know if he ever left and got education as a therapist?

        There is a relatively new approach to helping (it is not therapy) called “trauma-informed care” I have often thought that it would be helpful to people who are newly emerged from high control organizations, like Scientology.
        I have also witnessed Mindfulness practices as profound.
        I think the fact that Scientology puts a person on only one path (Scientology) cuts them off from the mix and match processes, people need different approaches at different times.

        • Alanzo April 7, 2017 at 11:51 am #

          The question was anathema because OF COURSE ANYTHING IS BETTER THAN SCIENTOLOGY! You don’t even need to ask! 🙂

          Scientology auditing draws from hundreds of processes and techniques, but all follow what’s called “Model Session” and a strict use of TRs by the auditor.

          Scientology TRs demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7xiY54d96M

          I believe that Scientology auditing is actually a highly developed form of hypnotherapy – if that makes any sense to you.

          What’s this “trauma-informed care” you speak of?

          • Eileen April 8, 2017 at 1:40 pm #

            I think that auditing is definitely a highly developed form of hypnotherapy. My husband is an expert on hypnosis. He saw auditing on one of the shows and identified it immediately, including identifying some physical characteristics of the emerging trance state. He also identified the TRs as hypnosis.
            Trauma informed care is a relatively recent approach to health care that identifies history of trauma as an important factor in treating all patients. It sets some suggestions about how to avoid re-traumatizing people. Google should have some good descriptors.
            You might want to headline the topic for one of your posts, or if you ever want a guest contributor I’ll write you a short piece about it. It could really help people understand their experience (and their reactions) post scientology

          • Virginia McClaughry April 10, 2017 at 12:43 am #

            “…including identifying some physical characteristics of the emerging trance state.”

            Which were? Do you recall, Eileen? Sounded interesting to me what that list was.

          • Richard April 10, 2017 at 5:02 am #

            In my time in scn up until 1982, one of the initial auditing procedures was from the book Self Analysis. The auditor would give a command from a list. For example, “Recall a time when you had just built something.” The person answers. “Thank you. What were the sounds at that time?” etc.

            This improved memory and enabled a person to look at past incidents in terms of them being mental pictures. I never felt hypnotized. I was awake and alert and could have left any auditing session at any time.

          • Virginia McClaughry April 10, 2017 at 7:37 am #

            Maybe she’s talking about someone after an engram-running session? That would be quite a bit different than the SA lists.

        • Alanzo April 7, 2017 at 12:03 pm #

          Eileen –

          Also, you should know that the guy who helped me with my dad was not being an auditor – he was being an ethics officer. And he called on the help of other students in the course room to role-play with me. In all, 5 or 6 people were involved in getting me through that very bad place in my life, and to help me develop the skills I needed to improve my relationship with my father.

          • Eileen April 8, 2017 at 1:47 pm #

            So, here we have group therapy. Another very powerful intervention. Tends to help both the person who is involved and the helpers. Universality (I am not alone), Altruism (helping others), corrective recapitulation of primary family group (what may have helped you), are some of Yalom’s “curative factors” for group therapy.
            I think that healthy blogs serve some of the same purpose for many people. You may be helping people more than you realize.

    • Virginia McClaughry April 6, 2017 at 6:38 am #

      I agree with a lot of what I think you’re trying to say here Eileen, but not with that what soldiers do is somehow LESS than murder.

      I just don’t think that kind of distinction should be made because I think you might be trying to say (and you can correct me if I’m wrong) that what soldiers do is some kind of “authorized” killing, and I have any number of problems with that concept. The simplest of which is that no amount of authorization makes it any less of an act of taking someone’s life.

      Of course, maybe that’s exactly what you are trying to say, but I just don’t think people who are considering having an abortion should try to soften in ANY way what they will actually be DOING to their child. I am not against abortion, per se, I guess what I’m against is people being far too flippant about it.

      I have just heard too many stories from women who did not really fully consider the full weight of that and what that would feel like, until it was too late, and then it hit them like a mack truck because it is a lot more profound than they wanted to face before-hand.

      • Eileen April 7, 2017 at 11:25 am #

        Hi Virginia,
        I was making the distinction between words. Murder is really a legal term, means killing that has not been “justified” by governments or cultures. using the term murder to describe soldiers or abortions is just inaccurate. If the law changes than murder may become a descriptor for abortion, people will go to jail.
        I agree with you that taking a life should never be minimized. But I would never want to call a war vet a “murderer” or a woman who chose abortion.
        I have never known a woman who was flippant about abortion. I have witnessed what I would describe as grim determination, and regret.

        • Alanzo April 7, 2017 at 11:28 am #

          Your experience and your voice is valuable, Eileen.

          Thanks for contributing.

          And now you will be banned for disagreeing with Alanzo.

          • Eileen April 8, 2017 at 8:12 am #

            Yay!! I still haven’t been banned from any site, I feel like I am not part of the “cool kids” club.
            Will an actual ban hammer hit me, or should I expect something threatening in my mailbox?

          • Eileen April 8, 2017 at 1:50 pm #

            If you are sending my ban hammer through the mail, you will need my address.
            It is:
            1600 Pennsylvania Ave
            Washington DC

          • Virginia McClaughry April 8, 2017 at 2:04 pm #

            Well, I like having you here. You make me think.

          • Eileen April 8, 2017 at 4:53 pm #

            Thank you Virginia!

        • Virginia McClaughry April 7, 2017 at 11:58 am #

          Right. Well, obviously we disagree. But that’s ok.

  5. Richard April 6, 2017 at 7:22 am #

    Regarding being a tribal warrior, I was in scn for my own benefit. I never bought into Clearing The Planet. It took too long and cost too much. My tribal mentality was believing that scn had all the answers for me personally. I did believe that I would do some good for some people.

    After watching Going Clear I reexamined my scn experience of many years ago and became an anti scn-ist to the extent of singing with the choir on a couple of blogs, Alanzo’s included. I added satire and condemnation of all things scn, but after a couple of months I realized I wasn’t doing myself any good and quit doing it.

  6. Richard April 6, 2017 at 8:29 am #

    This is from memory and may not be accurate. The “brainstem”, often referred to as the reptilian part of the brain, is the first part of the brain to develop in the fetus. The human brain continues to develop until about age 20, so says modern science.

    Regardless of stance on soul/spirit/thetan and past lives/reincarnation/the hereafter, an unfortunate person who is brain dead after an accident is no longer a “person” imo. Anti abortionists sometimes point out the fact that a fetus develops a heartbeat. So has the brain dead adult. Abortion=murder is hardwired in the minds of many people.

    • Richard April 6, 2017 at 9:54 am #

      I think the discussion of abortion needs to bring in some politics. Trump said he’d leave abortion up to the individual states. I guess that means a state would need to find its own funding for abortion clinics without federal assistance. Federal defunding of all Planned Parenthood would be stupid imo. At least leave in birth control and basic women’s services. No fetus equals no abortion.

      But Catholics and others in the Be Fruitful And Multiply crowd don’t want to hear about birth control. I guess they haven’t looked at world population statistics. In 1800 there were 1 billion humans walking the earth. In 1960 there were 3 billion and today, less than 60 years later there are almost 8 billion and still rising. oops

      • Alanzo April 6, 2017 at 10:47 am #

        Every sperm is sacred!

        • Richard April 6, 2017 at 1:20 pm #

          Don’t forget the eggs. They’re even more sacred since there’s less of them! Our miserable sperms are just one amongst gazillions.

          • Alanzo April 6, 2017 at 1:21 pm #

            Good point.

            Plus, it’s Easter time.

          • Richard April 6, 2017 at 2:10 pm #

            Laughter! There are heavy thunderstorms here in NJ so I’m housebound. I’m getting off the computer since my brain is getting “scrambled.”

    • Virginia McClaughry April 6, 2017 at 11:33 am #

      There could be another reason for that rather than rhetoric – if that’s what you mean by hardwired. You’d have an impossible battle to convince a woman of that it wasn’t a person, who, after the fact, has just realized that they have eliminated a life that will never be again. I’m not saying things should go back to back alleys and dirty knives, just that there is more going on there “connection” wise that isn’t always correctly accounted for in the decision-making process.

      • Richard April 6, 2017 at 1:59 pm #

        Good point, Virginia. What was on my mind is that the most militant anti abortionists seem to be men. They seem to project the idea that stopping abortion is the most important issue in the world. Hopefully, in an ideal world, most women choosing to have an abortion are not forced or coerced into it. I don’t know if I exactly answered the question.

        • Lone Star April 6, 2017 at 3:08 pm #

          I think abortion should be legal up to the age of 30. No not weeks….years.

          • Claire Swazey April 7, 2017 at 9:46 pm #

            Even have it be retroactive!!!

        • Virginia McClaughry April 7, 2017 at 12:13 am #

          Richard, thanks, that helps me understand what you were looking at.

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