Hey, everyone, I’m Sarah Edmondson.
Anthony Ames 1:05
Hi, I’m Anthony Ames, Sarah’s husband, aka nippy,
Sarah Edmonson 1:08
And we’re here to talk about things that are just a bit culty. We were in a cult and we woke up and it was all captured in a docu series called “The Vow” on HBO. Also in my memoir “Scarred”.
Anthony Ames 1:20
And then we made this podcast, I guess you can say we’re technically a culture,
Sarah Edmonson 1:24
But not your typical culture. Well, not so much about the grisly details. We’re about kicking the doors down on the shaming and the secrets that make these culty things so destructive.
Anthony Ames 1:34
We’re here to have frank conversations about how cool things can cross over into the cultiverse, how to spot trouble when you see it and what happens when it comes to recovering from something culty if that happens to you
Sarah Edmonson 1:44
Each week for conversations with experts advocates, fellow survivors and whistleblowers to help us unpack what’s going on in the cultiverse.
Anthony Ames 1:52
We’re here to share what we know and everything from red flags to resiliency and to have a few laughs along the way, because sometimes, you gotta laugh.
Sarah Edmonson 1:59
Thank God. Now we have a lot to cover. So let’s get the show rolling, shall we? A Little Bit Culty Season 2 drop some new episodes every Monday on ACast App, or wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode. And to learn more visit us on Instagram and ALittleBitCulty.com.
Anthony Ames 2:32
Welcome back everybody to the Cultiverse. Outside the cultiverse, I’m a very happy man today. If I’m sounding a little nasaly that Ebola virus has hit the Ames household in the last three or four days. We have two kids down if you
Sarah Edmonson 2:47
If you just let me give you some echinacea and vitamins. I can get you better.
Anthony Ames 2:51
But my voice sounds a little sexier like this. I’ll say this. I was screaming last night when the Braves won the World Series. So the combination the Ebola virus and the Braves winning the World Series
Sarah Edmonson 3:01
Big night here. It was all worth it.
Anthony Ames 3:05
It was. It was.
Sarah Edmonson 3:06
Both Nippy and I cried tears of joy. Probably more so nippy because he’s from Atlanta, but I’m on board.
Anthony Ames 3:12
A little background. Okay, so I would watch the Atlanta Braves on TBS back in the early 80s When they had aired their games at 705 when the game was actually on and then re aired them at 1005. I watched the nine inning baseball game twice. And if Dale Murphy hit a homerun I’d stay up to Dale Murphy hit a homerun and went to bed. So this all came full circle for you. Well, and that’s when they were bad. And then in the 90s they had one of the best teams in baseball they went to the World Series, I think five times and only one at once. So for a team for them to come in and do it like this. Oh, and the last two times I’ve gone to a regular season baseball game was 1995 in the summer and what happened but Braves win saying just say it just saying…
Sarah Edmonson 3:54
And also for those people who don’t know Nippy’s got a mind like a Rain Man type of mind that can remember all these stats, baseball stats, football stats like if you asked him what school any quarterback of all time went to, then he will say the college and we just try to hold on
Anthony Ames 4:09
Of course I’m an excellent driver.
Sarah Edmonson 4:11
The problem is I can’t remember. Troy Aikman! Troy Aikman!
Anthony Ames 4:17
Oklahoma first and they transferred UCLA I wouldn’t know 24 record as a starting quarterback.
Sarah Edmonson 4:22
It’s not just sports, maybe also as a mind for music. Okay, like drummer Def Leppard 74
Anthony Ames 4:28
We’ve done this. Rick Allen aka ThunderGod.
Sarah Edmonson 4:30
See but like that’s amazing. You want him to be on your team when you’re doing trivia
Anthony Ames 4:33
And for really anything basketball or football related pasta, not a great team member
Sarah Edmonson 4:39
Or our anniversary or …
Anthony Ames 4:41
No I remember that What are you talking about? I shut down a bar in like New Years of like I can’t remember what year this was… And I bet the bartender that he could turn down the lights for last call turn down the music and he could ask anyone in the bar where quarterback with the college and he did it and I got like five to six people and I got I got like 20 shots for everyone there because that was the best like out there to this. Actually. Anyway…
Sarah Edmonson 5:10
I’m not sure the segue
Anthony Ames 5:11
I’m not sure the segue into our next guest, you had some pre emptive things that you want to say I have some things too. Why I think this is a good episode. Do you want to share yours first?
Sarah Edmonson 5:22
Sure. I think this is a this is like a special episode because it’s not our normal expert or survivor story. This is an episode I think will be particularly interesting for people who followed our whole Nexium story and the trial and most people are waiting for the trial to be it’s all it’s all going to be in season two of The Vow which we now will be in 2022, hopefully first quarter. So for those who followed it in real time, I think this will be a really interesting episode because of our guest and what she brings to the table and for us, it was just riveting because we don’t get to have these kind of forthright conversations with somebody with the notoriety as this woman
Anthony Ames 5:59
Who also works in a field too. So up until now we’ve had experts and victims, right and we’ve had experts go back and victims go back and recognize the precursors. This is particularly interesting because it’s someone in the legal domain who understands the symptoms and precursors to these types of abuses. And I think it might be interesting a just because there’s more content behind the scenes stuff that people don’t get the first time around. And secondly, to know how they’re protected. It’s a pretty interesting conversation because she goes into legally what protects what we have set up in our culture as a system to protect us from these kinds of abuses. And it’s different than just kind of the analytic mind from the expert and victim mind from the victim. She actually puts this into a due process system and she explains it really, really well. And I think I speak for Sarah when I say she’s one of our guardian angels showed up in our life, so if you watch The Vow or followed the NXIVM story, you know, Moira Penza is the prosecutor who likes to show up in four inch heels. I know this because I saw it. Five to six days I was at the trial and she brought Keith Ranieri to justice. As a federal prosecutor lawyer first chaired the jury trial, and obviously she crushed it because in June 2019, he was convicted of all counts include racketeering and sex trafficking, is now serving a 120 year sentence.
Sarah Edmonson 7:19
120 That was a very notable day in our in our lives anything that when we found out he would be in jail for 120 years 120 She’s now a private practice as a litigator. And as a partner at Wilkinson Stekloff, Crain’s New Business named her in the 40 under 40 list also she was in Bloomberg laws 40 under 40 City and state’s 100 most powerful lawyers in New York. And Moira has led some of the highest stakes trials in the country.
Sarah Edmonson 7:44
Her legal analysis has been featured in The New York Times CNN ABC, NPR and Daily Beast. Long story short she truly is one of our heroes. It’s also ironic because she’s this stunning petite brunette so stylish head to toe Prada power suits and definitely would have been keeps type.
Anthony Ames 8:01
Yeah, I think Keith probably had impure thoughts.
Sarah Edmonson 8:03
Yeah, the fact that she she was able to take him down I wish I could have been there in the courtroom to see her walk in and Keith just you know, whatever was going through his head it’s just there’s there’s something perfectly beautiful about this whole picture. So without further ado, our conversation with Moira Penza.
Anthony Ames 8:37
So where do we start, Sarah?
Sarah Edmonson 8:38
Well, you know, we really do have a lot of questions and a big scope and not the most epic amount of time. For the listeners who don’t know you and your role in our lives and the NXIVM trial. Would you mind just bringing us back to the moment when like you’re living your life and you read The New York Times article and that or whatever started your journey with us?
Moira Penza 9:00
Sure. So I was gonna say you really were right there at the beginning of the journey, Sarah, so it was just reading the New York Times, which I do every day. I’m a lifelong New Yorker, and front page was this story about you! And I was immediately drawn in as I think so many other people were and for a number of reasons. I mean, we were right at a moment in time where people were starting to really talk about abuses of power.
Moira Penza 9:31
I went to school in upstate New York, I went to undergrad at Binghamton. I did law school at Cornell. So that was something that was very interesting. But I think in particular, to me, what stood out was that I immediately thought there is more to this story, and that there’s potential criminal activity here. Being a federal prosecutor at that point in time, I was in a position where I was able to react to that in a way that you know, thankfully, we got a great team together and we were able to ultimately bring together this case. But it was really starting out just seeing what you had said had happened to you hearing with Katherine and Mark were saying in that initial article, and just immediately trying to learn more.
Moira Penza 10:21
So one of the first things that I did after reading that article was basically get on the internet and try to learn everything I could, because in some ways, it was shocking that I had never heard about, given how many people have gone through Nxivm classes, given the fact that there had been this investigative reporting many years before that had uncovered a lot of wrongdoing and what looked like criminal activity. I was really surprised that I had never heard of this. And so immediately start digging in, see all of the web sites for Keith Raniere for all of these sister companies for all of these various individuals and it was just all of a sudden I was truly down the rabbit hole.
Moira Penza 10:27
And just to be clear, like, I know that you have talked about your experience speaking with law enforcement, and you knew that we were going to talk about that today. But normally, I wouldn’t talk about my interactions with somebody who spoke to me as part of my job and as part of being a witness without their permission, but in doing it kind of in this context and understanding that I have your permission to kind of talk about …
Sarah Edmonson 11:35
..were anything for me related. Like it’s all good, open book at this point.
Moira Penza 11:40
Great. So one of the first things I did was really trying to figure out who was your agent who are your lawyers. And so I think the first people I spoke to were people who were connected to you as entertainment lawyers, not as you know, a lawyer representing you in the context of Nxivm, the criminal organization, but really sitting down with you. That was one of the first experiences that we really had, where we started to learn more about this organization and more about what was happening and that’s really what we did right away.
Moira Penza 12:14
So I read the article, Tonya Hajjar. who was the other prosecutor who ended up trying the case with me, she was immediately interested as well. That day, we got this incredible FBI agent Mike Weniger assigned to the case, his colleague, Michael Lever, and Charlie Fontenelli, who was actually New York State Police. And that was huge to to have that connection right away.
Moira Penza 12:39
So we have this team right away, that was incredibly invested in us. And so within weeks, we were sending out tons of subpoenas as we were meeting with witnesses and meeting with survivors & victims. There was so much so quickly, that is not always typical of a law enforcement investigation. Because based on what we were learning beyond The New York Times article, we had every reason to believe that there were still women in danger at that point in time, and that there would be continuing criminal activity if Keith Raniere were not stopped.
Sarah Edmonson 13:23
Wow, I got goosebumps,
Anthony Ames 13:25
I think that’s an accurate assessment. I don’t want to go back because you read the article and you have an impression and you have an impression that there’s abuses of power what was your hypothesis as to what it was and then compare that to what you learned and what on what you uncovered. Because I know for me I knew there was some abuses going on after that but what you guys uncovered shocked me
Sarah Edmonson 13:46
Moira Penza 13:47
So right away when you were reading the original article to have the allegations about collateral, right. That’s sort of coercion. When you hear that, that enables so much criminal activity, right? It’s not just in the Nxivm context. And so many times what enables it to happen is the ability to have that coercive of control over people, whether you’re talking about the mob, whether you’re talking about a street gang, that you’re talking about a drug cartel, once you have that source of power, you have an amazing ability to victimize people and commit different types of crimes.
Moira Penza 14:31
So that stood out right away. And then, of course, the allegation that Keith Ranieri was behind this so called women’s empowerment group it’s just a shocking thing. Right at the outset, you know, when I think that was something that throughout the whole case really resonated with people. Like this fundamental fraud, that you had this man in the background as this puppet master. I wish I could say I was shocked, but I had done a lot of victim centric cases, a lot of sex crime cases, by the time I’ve read the article in The New York Times. So by the time I’m reading about Sara’s experience, I had seen coercive control before. I had seen victims of sexual abuse and really shocking crimes already, you know, and I, I almost had a reputation in the office although I had only I hadn’t been there that long. As the person who got these quote crazy cases or took on really these quote, crazy cases.
Moira Penza 15:43
But they weren’t crazy to me, right. It was really these are to me, these were the worst crimes that are being perpetuated.
Anthony Ames 15:51
They had symtpoms.
Moira Penza 15:52
100%! There was part of me that immediately thought there could be a sexual component to this. And that was corroborated that gut feeling very quickly because I met with people who had been assaulted by Keith Raniere and as part of DOS. So I think that was something that happened really quickly. And then I do give enormous credit to the Albany Times Union and what they had been able to uncover all the way back in 2012.
Moira Penza 16:24
A lot of the predicate acts and the background of what I, you know, became the kind of this seminal organization that I charged, a lot of that had been identified before. I mean, it was, you know, very troubling, of course, that it hadn’t been stopped earlier, but then there was more uncovered and I really do think it was a matter of really building trust with people and really understanding where people were coming from, you know, I always come back to the agents, but I think their rapport… the fact that we all came to this with a healthy skepticism. But immediately were confronted with real facts that showed that there were crimes here that needed to be prosecuted.
Anthony Ames 17:16
This might be a little earlier than we wanted to ask it but you said something that is really been my question as this whole thing and I folded from the beginning because I was there in 2009 When a lot of these woman complained, and I went in and asked everyone know what’s going on here because I was thinking of getting out or just leaving not knowing, you know, there’s too much here to ask questions too, and I got lied to …To see that Times Union was actually on the scent and wasn’t able to get the proper investigation or Keith arrested. I felt like if these things were true, then there was a criminal justice system in place that would held them accountable either locally, or wherever.
Sarah Edmonson 17:59
That’s actually what Lauren said. She said, if these things were true, we’d be in prison. I was like oh, okay.
Anthony Ames 18:04
Obviously that’s the question and subsequently since we started our podcasts, we’ve asked a lot of these people why they think these abuse of power gone on, a lot of them do. And protection from certain government agencies through loopholes. I’m just wondering what you think happened there, or why he was able to exist and quote unquote get away with it? What do you think went on?
Sarah Edmonson 18:24
Are you allowed to answer that?
Moira Penza 18:25
Frankly, I can’t fully comprehend why law enforcement didn’t act earlier. Of course, this is a very complex case. And I came at it in a world in which I had a very dedicated team.
Moira Penza 18:44
I was at the Eastern District of New York, which has a lot of resources which has a historical practice of prosecuting these really big racketeering cases. So I had all of that on my side. But I do think it’s a real question that still remains out there as to why nothing was done earlier. And Judge Garaufis raised that during Lauren’s sentencing. and I think that was just a powerful moment because I think all of us as proud as we are of the resolution that we got in this case and the fact that Keith Ranieri is unable to hurt anyone else. There’s still a real sadness and it really is a tragedy.
Moira Penza 19:27
That so many people, including Sarah, including the other women, in DOS, they never had to go through that had this been stopped earlier. And so I think that’s really one of the things that I think remains a mystery.
Moira Penza 19:45
However, if I were to hypothesize, I think a big factor was the amount of funding and financing that was behind this. And so when you look at the campaign that was initiated, just against you, after the DOS story was broken inside the organization, where you had someone who’s actually able to get on a plane and try and get authorities to act against you, Sarah and where that has happened in the past successfully, where they have been able to go after critics where other people have been able to, you know, have essentially prosecutions handed to them in a box. I think that that is something that that is a very, is very powerful, and so I think the other thing, though, was that there was just a ton of fear in terms of the people who were victimized, right, understandably so. I think once DOS happened, and once that really blew up and once there were people speaking out, that enabled other people to be part of a group. And there was still an enormous amount of fear, right, every single witness interview I did, I was, you know, talking people down explaining the fact that they were protected now that it was very unlikely that there was going to be any physical violence that it would be very hard to retaliate at this point in time, but I think until then, people would have been outliers.
Moira Penza 21:24
And first of all, it’s hard to build a case if you don’t have cooperative witnesses, right. That’s, that’s pretty fundamental. And then on top of that, you know, people didn’t want to say these things happened to me because they didn’t believe anyone was going to support them and they thought their own lives would be ruined instead. And that’s the pattern they have seen already.
Sarah Edmonson 23:19
We also had a theory that maybe there have been some bribery we had this is totally unsubstantiated, just our own theory that maybe Claire Bronfman had paid off certain officials to kind of leave them alone.
Sarah Edmonson 23:31
And just as an example of if you’ve ever told the story publicly, once we had, I think we’d already gone to the New York Times but the article wasn’t out yet. And there was months went by, right there was months of waiting for that article five months, I think and we knew that there was a coach summit at The Bow at that dingy little clubhouse that used to be an Italian restaurant, and we knew that they were over capacity, because they were over always over capacity or trying to figure out what…
Anthony Ames 23:57
And they weren’t supposed to be cooking food there.
Sarah Edmonson 23:59
And there was like all their reveals of like silly little laws, right? But we were just trying to distract as much as we could. And I called the local authorities just to say I want you to know that there’s an event happening and they’ll double capacity in a fire hazard and I really think that you should go knock on the door and let them know and they wouldn’t do it unless I was willing to give my name. And I was like What crazy law was that based on? Like, you can’t just go knock on their door and see that they’re over capacity without me like I’m not willing to give my name. These people are crazy. They’re gonna come after me.
Sarah Edmonson 24:31
Of course later, they’re much more willing to give my name about these things, but at the time, we didn’t know that the New York Times was going to come out the impact it would have or whatever, but our theory was that Claire has just paid off people and just to sort of give them some space to do whatever they want it essentially.
Moira Penza 24:46
So look, I do not know whether that happened. Certainly at trial. I think there were some pretty shocking allegations and things that we proved at trial, about attempts by Claire Bronfman at various points in time to curry favor with certain politicians. We had evidence of the fact that there were these illegal campaign payments at certain points in time with essentially Claire Bronfman financing other people’s payments over campaign contribution limits. So now I believe more things are possible than I did before. But I don’t have any way of knowing that.
Moira Penza 25:29
The thing is what I also have the gut sense of is that there was again without this being substantiated, but just that there was a view that ‘okay, this is a weird group over here. I’m just gonna let them kind of do their thing and not really get involved.’ That’s really the sense that I have. And it’s so disheartening to me looking back at all the atrocities that were taking place within this subdivision, but I really think that is what a lot of people thought was, you know, these are just a bunch of weirdos and just let them do their thing.
Anthony Ames 26:12
That’s part of the con.
Moira Penza 26:14
Anthony Ames 26:14
You know, I do know, Sarah and I had multiple people who were on the fence asking questions, and they were coming back to us with what they were saying about Sarah and I and one person who left said flat out Claire Bronfman went on a walk with him and said, ‘What dirt do you have on them?’
Moira Penza 26:33
That doesn’t surprise me at all right? Because this is it, you know, presuming that’s true or not true. I mean, you you know this better, you know better than anyone, but the whole way in which Nxivm operated are certainly one of the primary means and methods of Nxivm the criminal organization, as we conceived of it was having this collateral in all forms, right? Like they were getting collateral from people from day one, and having this ability to extort people and maintain power over people. Obviously, it reached this apex with DOS where you were truly defrauding people in order to get the most damaging things that you could use to destroy their lives. And then, you know, use women for whatever purposes you wanted them for. But I think that was one of the primary ways in which the organization operated from the beginning.
Sarah Edmonson 27:34
For those who don’t know, from the beginning means more people join myself included to take the five day week to fill out a bunch of intake forms that you know, your name and your goals and including just little questions like what’s the worst thing you’ve ever done?
Moira Penza 27:48
Sarah Edmonson 27:49
My worst thing is like taking too many tea bags from the free buffet Tea Bar on the lake, that was my worst thing. But other people have things like, you know, cheating or, you know, hurting somebody or, you know, bigger, bigger, fact things that they didn’t want people to know, obviously, but they needed to work through these things that they felt guilty about and all those things were recorded and kept and ultimately those intake forms are what I never returned to Claire. You know this but I don’t know if our listenership does that I had all of my student files from our center where everyone’s intake forms were and I kept those and they wanted the back. “I’m not giving you my students worse moments worse secrets, credit card information addresses.
Sarah Edmonson 28:28
So just to backtrack for one second you were saying when you saw the history of the collateral like having that over people, how do you feel when you hear people who are loyal to Keith, who are defending Keith, now saying those things were used just to help people keep their word.
Anthony Ames 28:44
They’re seeking to minimize the abuse and deny the abuse. Right And sure,
Sarah Edmonson 28:48
How do you feel when you hear the the DOS explanation of what collaterals was for?
Moira Penza 28:53
You know, I, I give it very little credence, as I’m sure you can imagine, and I don’t really like to engage in a back and forth on they say a point and this is how we, because you don’t do that with people who are unwilling to look at real facts. right? That to me, this is something you know, when you look at science deniers, that’s what happens. They’re not willing to actually look at real facts. They cherry pick pieces of evidence, and their reasoning is fundamentally flawed. And so you’re never going to be able to engage in that sort of debate with someone.
Moira Penza 29:35
But I think with DOS, you know, there’s just so many aspects of it that being on you being on the show here with you that I can just kind of clarify. And I think, you know, this idea that collateral was not meant to be released, that was solely debunked with the evidence at trial. Your Branding video was released during the course of our trial.
Moira Penza 30:03
But even beyond that, we had an enormous amount of evidence about collateral and what the purpose was. One of the things that really stood out from the trial is how much we how much primary source material, right to use the word data in the way it’s actually intended and not the nonsense way that Nxivm like to use it. If you actually looked at the data that would be presented at trial. We had Keith Raniere’s own words talking about how there will be different groups in DOS who would know how to do the execution of collateral, right?
Moira Penza 30:43
We had these point scales about how much each piece of collateral was worth. And that’s because certain levels of this collateral would be able to destroy someone’s life, if they were released. If this is just to uphold your word, you don’t need to have the letter that’s written addressed to Child Protective Services saying that, you know, someone in your family has sexually abused your child.
Moira Penza 31:12
I was so I think there’s just there’s so much falsity in what any of the Loyalists would say about DOS. And what I think is like just even more disturbing is just the fact that they completely ignore things like Keith Raniere’s own words, right? Keith Raniere’s own words, saying to Camilla, I want you to groom a sex slave. And then we won’t talk about the fact that DOS was not, at least in some aspect, about getting sex for Keith Raniere?
Moira Penza 31:48
Or, you know, the fact that after there was the New York Times article that they put out a statement where Keith Raniere said he had nothing to do with the organization. Like how do you justify those sorts of lies or the fact that they’re getting on TV and are unwilling to talk about the fact that they themselves had sex with Keith Ranieri, and that they were recruiting people into the organization that they were calling a women’s empowerment group that they knew was secretly headed by a man that they were sleeping with. But you don’t have to go much deeper!
Sarah Edmonson 32:28
But Moira, it’s an ethical lie!
Anthony Ames 32:31
Can we make a pivot here and call the collateral blackmail? Instead of collateral? Because that’s a word that I was just when the beginning is to stop calling it that. Let’s call it blackmail.
Moira Penza 32:41
I mean, it’s certainly in a colloquial status, right? Like there are specific laws against blackmail and the when we have charged it was the original. So I just like to be very clear in terms of when you’re talking colloquially and when you’re talking in a very specific legal sense. But absolutely, like that was 100% the purpose of it.
Sarah Edmonson 33:02
I’d also want to just backtrack for a minute, and I’m loving this conversation by the way, just to backtrack from once you had the team in place, it seemed like things move very, very quickly in in nippy and I have obviously never been involved in anything like anything like this ever before.
Anthony Ames 33:15
Sarah Edmonson 33:16
Yeah, we were just amazed by how fast you move and how quickly we’re able to get Keith arrested and brought back to the US. Is there anything that you can share with us about that process? What was going on behind the scenes? That’s okay, for you to share about how that happened?
Moira Penza 33:31
Yeah, I mean, look, it was just an enormous amount of hard work, right. It was a lot of subpoenas, a lot of search warrants. A lot of talking to witnesses, a lot of coordination internationally with people from the FBI who are in different places. But it was really just a matter of really hard work. And a lot of different facets of that. I think, you know, it was very scary once Keith Raniere had stopped using his phone and had basically gone underground. And so, you know, just speaking generally the things that you would do as a prosecutor, you’re looking for any way to try and track where he might be where his associates might be. And so, you know, when we finally were able to determine where he was, that was at a time when a lot of people had been traveling to that area at which was a good indication that that’s where he might be.
Sarah Edmonson 34:34
And when you start to meet with people, can you tell us a little bit about what that was like for you as you started to talk to witnesses in terms of not obviously, what you can’t share, but what was it like for you to start to get a sense of the scope of this thing and was what shocked you the most or what, what was it like to put the pieces together?
Moira Penza 34:51
It was so much so quickly. There was a steep learning curve at the beginning about how to interact with people, especially people who hadn’t been out that long, right or people who were still in some of them. And I think really learning how to engage and once I learned more about the organization and how it worked, I think that was really helpful in communicating with different people. But really the level of abuse I think without going into any details about the specific meetings, but you know, I think it’s obvious from trial that when I started meeting with Daniella and really learned more about this kind of pre DOS world and really all of the crimes that had taken place before them beyond, you know, what I’ve read in the Albany Times Union, and then really understanding how closely it was connected to what we ultimately saw in DOS. I think that was a real pivotal moment, but certainly you know, speaking to everybody individually was the most important part of it and really allowed us to put a lot of it together and really understanding you know, the way different you know, the way different lines within DOS operated really understanding you know, the different personalities, the different people but then how it was all part of the same overall criminal scheme.
Moira Penza 36:25
You know, even understanding now I’m getting really in the weeds that whenever I talk to people who are really in it, you know, I I want to kind of get in the weeds but you know, even thinking about Pam Caifritz’s death. Right? And in my head, I really do believe I firmly believe that if Pam Cafrits were still alive, she would have been sitting at Keith Raniere’s table during the trial.
Sarah Edmonson 36:50
That was one of our questions.
Sarah Edmonson 36:52
I really believe that I think she would have stood by him to the end. And I do think part of what DOS was and certainly part of the narrative that we used at trial was that DOS was born out of the need to continue this criminal organization. Were one of his top lieutenants had died, right one of his top recruiters, one of his top groomers was now gone. And DOS served a lot of the purposes that Pam had shipped.
Sarah Edmonson 37:27
Right, that makes total sense. Yeah, because he doesn’t have the built in loyalty anymore. And he had these women who was worth and then he also had somebody like Kristen Keith, who left him right. So he’s had the sense of that he went didn’t have this.
Anthony Ames 37:42
He was vulnerable.
Sarah Edmonson 37:42
He was vulnerable and he had to lock it down.
Moira Penza 37:45
And not just Kristen right? Here had Daniella Juliet viewed as disloyal. He had Camilla who be viewed as disloyal. He had this, you know, DOS was a way of locking down all of these women. Lauren, even you know, testifies that, you know, she’s brought into DOS, before he tells her that Marianna is pregnant, after you know, years and years and years
Anthony Ames 38:17
He creates an ethical conundrum for her. If she speaks out, she’s disloyal, and she’s disloyal to the DOS. I get it.
Sarah Edmonson 38:22
You have to get her locked in before he revealed that he was having a baby with somebody else. Well, there was somebody who left that I can remember what year she left them to say her name because she’s out long gone long, kind of I want to say like maybe 2010 or 11. But she was part of the harem and she since reached out to us has been very supportive to us. And she said, when she started to read about what DOS was, she said, that’s exactly what my life was like, except without the name DOS.
Sarah Edmonson 38:30
There was naked photos to be attended to him at all and be ready on the phone at any time. Calorie restriction all the things except it wasn’t called DOS. And there was no master slave – everything else was there. And so this is just the formality of his lifestyle in the form of DOS.
Moira Penza 39:07
You know, that’s really a lot of what we presented at trial was in proving this as a criminal organization. You know, I use NXIVM as shorthand, but it was Keith Ranieri, his criminal enterprise and it continued, some, you know, many years prior to DOS’s existence. And you see the same means and methods including use of collateral use of this sort of blackmail, material, retaliation, fear grooming of women, naked photos, all of that you see consistently throughout the whole time period that we were charging
Anthony Ames 39:48
Yeah all that stuff was pretty shocking to see and hear. Was that what you thought you were gonna uncover when you read the New York Times article?
Moira Penza 39:57
I was definitely more right. It’s like this rotten onion and you just keep peeling back rotten layer after rotten layer. But I will say I pretty quickly conceptualized this as a criminal organization. Like other criminal organizations.
Anthony Ames 40:12
To see our trajectory from June 1 to 17. When I went in and said, My peace with everybody and to where Sarah and I were thinking, oh my god, I think the next four to five years, our lives are going to be getting Claire Bronfman because we’d spoken to people who found out about Nuba and like here’s what you’re Here’s what’s coming. And I’m thinking, “Oh, my God, I got a three year old, he’s gonna be seven or eight before I can come up for air and I’m not in trauma”.
Anthony Ames 40:36
While we were afraid. We didn’t know that we didn’t have really anything to be afraid of. We had no way of knowing that until you guys exposed everything and then it seemed like it wasn’t even close. And we didn’t really have anything to be afraid of, because they were guilty in ways that we couldn’t even fathom. And I tend to think if the FBI is knocking on your door, that’s a good indication that something’s going on. That was alarming to me that all the people that had the FBI going on and they got, they put on their big boy pants and thought they were being tough. I’m like no, no, that’s not how you when the FBI is knocking on your door. There’s probably something egregious going on and it’s probably in your best interest to cooperate. So to me that spoke to a lot of people’s ignorance that we’re in there if I didn’t even have a sense of..
Moira Penza 42:32
Yeah, I mean, look, there’s still people who even after everything that’s proved at trial they still choose to, you know, believe in Keith Raniere
Anthony Ames 42:42
Not during the trial, after the trial – on Twitter. So Twitter is not a courtroom.
Moira Penza 42:48
Now it’s not! And I think that’s such an important thing for people to recognize, right? Because the women in this case so not just the women but when I think about, you know, Sarah, Sarah came in she spoke candidly with the government she handed over a computer handed over a phone was willing to take the stand and be cross examined under oath. Same thing with the women who did take the stand, right? They handed over all of their information. They underwent this horrible process, right? Nobody wants to go through being a witness at a trial, and he was found guilty with all of this process, right. Like he had great lawyers. He had a trial with a, you know, a sit in front of a federal judge with jurors that you know, have been more geared to, you know, be fair and impartial. And, of course, he was found guilty because he was. And that’s still not enough, but it will never be enough for certain people.
Anthony Ames 43:52
The way the gas lighting works is they blur context, switch the assumptions, the switch context and they just deny facts and don’t even entertain …
Sarah Edmonson 44:00
That was one of our questions. How does it feel to have your process be gas lit the prosecution is being gas lit by the loyalists?
Moira Penza 44:07
I don’t actually think that Twitter is reflection of real life. Most people I know are not posting on Twitter all day long. They, you know are going on with their real lives.
Anthony Ames 44:20
They have jobs.
Moira Penza 44:20
Exactly! And so I try not to give it too much credence because I just think at the end of the day, the vast majority of people who know the Nxivm story and who know about the trial have fully accepted that Keith Raniere is a criminal. He’s a predator. He committed all these crimes and that he’s, rightly, serving 120 years in jail.
Anthony Ames 44:28
Just say 120… just that word that
Moira Penza 44:40
Moira Penza 44:48
It’s just really is so satisfying, knowing that he will spend the rest of his life really unable to hurt other people.
Sarah Edmonson 45:06
But why is he able to still talk to them? That’s what I want to know.
Moira Penza 45:09
I don’t know. I can’t you know, I’m not a prosecutor anymore, so I don’t have a lot of power there.
Anthony Ames 45:16
Okay, here’s one and it doesn’t chapped my ass because it’s not offensive. It’s funny. The day or the week of Keith’s sentencing. I guess the group is MakeJusticeBlind or whatever it is. They give an affidavit to the judge to sign right before their sentencing. Keith Raniere under the assumption that justice isn’t blind, it just seems to me like ‘Way to insult the people who are about to decide your fate in a lot of ways. I wonder what that’s like for you and then they go to your office?
Moira Penza 45:49
They did go to my office. And that was frightening.
Anthony Ames 45:52
It is a little bit frightening because you’re dealing with people that are unstable. I totally agree. Sorry,
Moira Penza 45:58
I wasn’t actually at my office that day. My law firm has a DC office in New York office. And so I actually wasn’t at the New York office that day, but it was frightening that they would come to my work. And you know, these are people who I did believe were in touch with Keith Raniere, who I did believe were acting at his behest, and who I believe, you know, I have no idea why they were there.
Moira Penza 46:26
And so that was startling and I immediately did contact Keith Raniere’s lawyer and made clear that if anything like that were to happen again that I would take additional steps to protect myself. But you know, thankfully, there’s been nothing since then. But you know, the whole thing was just total nonsense.
Moira Penza 46:46
I mean, my integrity has been on the line since day one, right? I’m an officer of the court. Everything I do is with the knowledge that I am there as a representative of the government. You know, my entire mission, the whole reason I’m doing that job is to seek justice. And so you know, really it’s just so pathetic to think that you know, you’re going to come in and try and impune my integrity when you’re standing up for this person who has literally committed these heinous crimes. Who has lied over and over and over again, and, you know, in demonstrable ways, you know, it just really isn’t worth a lot of energy.
Moira Penza 47:37
You know, one of the things that I felt was even, you know, more curious or disturbing was kind of the petition on behalf of, I think it was Nicki Clyne and Michelle Hatchet, where they were basically saying that you know, for whatever reason, they haven’t testified on Keith Raniere’s behalf including, you know, my actions. And you know, it’s just, it’s just such garbage. They were in Brooklyn, the judge would have, of course, had subpoenas issued for them to testify at trial had Keith Raniere wanted them to testify at trial. Like I know that if they had taken the stand in Keith Raniere’s defense, we would have had a verdict in an hour instead of, you know, four hours. Like it would have just been so bonkers, right? They because if they had taken a stand, they’re not able to do what they can do on Twitter, or wherever else and say, I don’t want to answer that question. Because that question was too tough, or that question is too hard to explain
Sarah Edmonson 48:46
And that’s actually something that our listeners have asked over and over again, why didn’t Keith speak at his trial? Why didn’t he defend himself? Is it for the same reason that he just couldn’t be cross examined?
Moira Penza 48:54
You know, under the Constitution? You have the right not to incriminate yourself. So I just want to be crystal clear that the government had the burden and has no obligation for Keith to take the stand, no expectation for him to take the stand – it would be unconstitutional for us to have ever argued or implied that somehow his not taking the stand meant that he was guilty of some way. That being said it typically is not successful when criminal defendants do take the stand because they do get cross examined and they no longer can take the fifth right because they’ve given up that right against self incrimination by taking the stand. And so you can ask questions about all sorts of unethical conduct in the past all sorts of criminal activity in the past, if it goes to their integrity, because now on top of the actual crimes, you’re able to prove that they’re not a trustworthy person, and that they aren’t somebody whose testimony can be believed. And here you know, there was just so much evidence of his own words that he would have been confronted with. So I think, you know, I it does not surprise me at least that he didn’t take the stand and I think that’s what most attorneys would have advised him.
Anthony Ames 50:17
How do you explain ‘fuck toy’?
Moira Penza 50:18
The tough one to explain.
Anthony Ames 50:20
First question, Mr. Raniere, you’re a leader of a philosophical movement. Fuck toy? Carry on?
Moira Penza 50:25
I mean, they’re certainly not answering that question on Twitter, either.
Sarah Edmonson 50:28
And you may not know this, Mara, but whenever we speak to somebody who’s woken up in other words, realize that Keith is a sociopathic con man and not a noble humanitarian leader of the philosophical movement, and that happens at different stages for different people that when they reach out to us, we always ask them well, after they apologize to us, which is usually what happens. We say, How did you wake up? And most people say that and we’re talking about the leadership with the leaders and Mexico and people who came out after us that when they saw that first affidavit with the text exchange between Keith and Camilla, you know, or he asked for to find him the fuck toy. That’s where most people wake up. Right there. Most people tap out there.
Anthony Ames 51:09
Yeah, most people tap out there and it gets worse. It gets worse past that, like that’s just the appetizer to like his abuse.
Sarah Edmonson 51:16
And just also so you know, I thought you’d appreciate the story. I’m not gonna say his name because I have about this but a top leader say he’s a green sash, narrows it down, told us that he was out at that time and also had his own experience with Keith saying I had nothing to do with this thing and then derailed and he actually at the time he felt bad for Keith that this was happening to him. And then the affidavit came out and he had these two conflicting things and realize that Keith lied, and there’s a way and he presented this to Clare and Clare refused to believe it and basically attested that and express but basically it was all planted and that the FBI planted all of these text messages and FBI could do that and that’s what they would do to such a noble humanitarian who’s trying to bring ethics into the world.
Anthony Ames 51:58
Oh my god.
Sarah Edmonson 51:58
Just so you know, I just want you to know some of these stories. Like there’s all the stuff that’s happening behind the scenes because of the action that you and your team took. So many people were able to get out and wake up and partly it was that first how do we how do you been able to say how you can get that kind of material? Because once you have the search warrant?
Moira Penza 52:17
Yeah, I mean, that was from a search warrant. That was from a search warrant of Katherine Aires emails where he had saved all of his WhatsApp chats which just you know, makes you think it makes you believe in God you’re like, how did he you know, it’s it actually isn’t surprising because he kept these trophies all the time but that he had all of those stored. I mean, when we found that we knew that was a game changet.
Anthony Ames 52:45
Sarah Edmonson 52:46
Yeah. That’s amazing.
Anthony Ames 52:48
I was at the metadata days. It’s what I call, I was three days of the trial where you guys just talked about metadata in there and my head was trying to sustain and keep myself up, but I guess she obviously had to do it. That’s where I think certain people are trying to find an inconsistency.
Moira Penza 53:05
Anthony Ames 53:05
To your point. He kept the photos in a library. What are they talking about?
Sarah Edmonson 53:11
Are grasping at straws?
Moira Penza 53:12
This is true, you know, grasping at straws, absolutely.
Sarah Edmonson 53:16
It was actually a shift or strategy which is strategy that keep taught us that when you’re trying to like deflect me but pointed something over here and make a fuss about something as it is a way to like, get away from the content and the content is he took photos of these vaginas. Let’s just remember that right?
Moira Penza 53:32
But it was just so well proven in so many different ways. Right? Think about like just the photos. They were situated among all of these other photographs of women we know he was having sex with. We knew he had gotten that we had testimony that he had gotten that camera at that specific point in time, and that he was on a picture taking binge. So we had another woman that whose photos two women testified at trial, that there are photos were taken at that exact timeframe. And then we have their photos of the same collection as the child pornography.
Moira Penza 54:10
We showed that the victim had her appendix scar, which she received that what met her appendix surgery, which she had when she was 16 that there was no scar visible in the photos. Um, so this is the kind of thing that I’m talking about.
Moira Penza 54:27
But you know, now that I’ve read a lot about when you argue with people who have these sorts of mindsets, there is no point right? It’s like talking to people who, you know, believe that 911 was an inside job or believe conspiracy theories about JFK’s assassination. You’re never going to, you know, be able to refute every little point that they tried to make and no one should really be trying to do so.
Sarah Edmonson 54:54
Yeah, I made the mistake of getting a phone call with a Loyalist last week as set up by
Anthony Ames 55:00
I told you it was a mistake.
Sarah Edmonson 55:00
I know it was a mistake, but it was nice to see them. And I think I may have gotten a shot in, we’ll see. But it was under the premise of that they were waking up and they were willing to take in data and I got on the phone with them. And it was nice for a minute and then launched into basically the the setup of the double bind, which I know because Keith caught us which is good. If you agree that that everybody deserves due process? What was the first that was the first question that something like that. And basically I answered two of them and I said whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I’m not here to debate the process. This is done. I’m here just to help you like to wake up and see the light and one of your lines because basically what they’re doing is in addition to their investigation of the process to prove that it was wrong to get help with that. They’ve agreed to also investigate Keith and to talk to the former victims and stuff like that like I’m so glad that you’re I mean my investigations done the investigation is done but if you need to investigate Keith please do and I will be here anyway.
Sarah Edmonson 55:03
I ended up getting off the phone because they started gaslighting me and going into wood and I agree that everyone deserves due process even somebody that you find despicable deserves due process and the human rights are based on…
Moira Penza 56:11
What’s the second question though? Like, he got due process! That’s what he got more due process than most people in this country get! Like do you want to talk about want to talk about people who don’t have access to great lawyers? Or don’t have the ability to pay low cash bail? Like we’re not talking about Keith Raniere who had millions and millions and millions of dollars for his legal defense. And had you know, a judge was looking out for his interest and one of the jury you know of his peers in in Brooklyn, New York.
Sarah Edmonson 56:48
Exactly. Which leads me to my chaps my ass, then I’d love to know yours and I’m sure you have many. But my chaps my guess is that I’ve heard that the Loyalists say people who still believe in Keith that one of the things that was not due process or not fair, I guess in their mind is that the jury only deliberated was it four hours, right?
Moira Penza 57:05
Yeah, something like that.
Sarah Edmonson 57:06
And they just don’t believe that any decision any ethical decision can be made in that short amount of time therefore, is not the process that chaps my ass. What’s yours?
Moira Penza 57:17
I understand that and I love the chaps my ass segment. I think the thing that chaps my ass the most is the teaching that there are no ultimate victims, which I just find to be the most manipulative way of victimizing people. And then to have Keith Raniere, playing the ultimate victim now. That chaps my ass.
Sarah Edmonson 57:49
Nailed it. Nailed it. That’s gonna be the soundbite for this particular episode for the meme. Okay.
Anthony Ames 57:56
That might be the gold standard of ass chapping.
Sarah Edmonson 57:58
Yeah, that is. I couldn’t be more I’m super riled up at that.
Anthony Ames 58:02
Can I say one thing? I think it’d be remiss if we didn’t at least talk about the judge and how he was sensitive to these things and how I feel like he got the sentencings right, what your impression of that is and how he came to Keith, Claire, Nancy, Lauren, Allison, etc. today and what our feelings on that are and I think I was pretty impressed. You know, almost down to the day for all of the sentencing.
Moira Penza 58:29
Me too! I just I just have enormous respect for Judge Garaufis.
Anthony Ames 58:34
Moira Penza 58:36
He has so much discernment, and I really do think he got it right in terms of the sentencing and I think the way he has reacted at each of the sentencing was and his statements at all of them have been right on point He really gets to kind of the worst conduct while also where appropriate seeing mitigating factors and how certain defendants ended up where they were. But I think, you know, we be his word and favourably sensitive topics, and he treated the women in this case with enormous respect.
Moira Penza 59:15
And, you know, that doesn’t mean that he didn’t allow thorough cross examination. It doesn’t mean that you know, Keith Raniere didn’t get to process but it meant that there was a willingness to really understand the issues at play here and to understand where the women were coming from. And I think just having somebody in that position of authority especially once we got to sentencing and especially once a jury had convicted Keith Raniere of really being able to be a figure in that courtroom of authority and really speak to these women as understanding what had happened. To them and expressing his sadness, really, that they had gone through what they went through, and commending their bravery in coming forward and being part of the trial or or speaking at sentencing and acknowledging how difficult that is to face the people who have caused you so much pain for the greater justice.
Sarah Edmonson 1:00:25
Right. I wish I had had that same time. I’m glad I was spared. I can have both feelings at the same time. You know what I mean?
Moira Penza 1:00:31
You know, you’re just had as right before the trial started and I think as the trial lawyer right now, we can dig into all the weeds and all of that, right. But as a trial lawyer, you have to be strategic.
Sarah Edmonson 1:00:45
Moira Penza 1:00:45
And you have to streamline your case as much as possible. So we already had a six week trial. In which we were able to prove all of the allegations right, all of the crimes that he had been accused of, we were able to prove and I think that’s something that takes a lot of discipline to not kind of be like, let’s put more because there’s such a huge story, but I am glad that you’ve had the opportunity to speak at sentencing. And I think that you know, that has been really powerful.
Sarah Edmonson 1:01:19
Thank you. I’m glad I was able to send those videos. And for those who don’t know, you charged Keith Raniere and company with a long list of crimes, just going to read this: racketeering, racketeering conspiracy, child exploitation, sex trafficking, forced labor, identity theft, extortion, money laundering, wire fraud, obstruction of justice, standalone counts of sex trafficking and other crimes. Actually, it’s not a question. It’s meant to remind people convicted, convicted him every single count hashtag 120. In layman’s terms, can you explain to our listeners why this was so powerful and why it was such a precedent setting case?
Moira Penza 1:01:51
You know, I don’t like to be the one to say that. But I do think you know, it was apparent to me very shortly after getting involved in this case that this was a wide ranging criminal organization. And I do think when some of these crimes in isolation have obviously not gotten as much attention as they should have from law enforcement. I think it is, well known that sex based crimes are under prosecuted, and they are difficult cases to bring. And so I think what I am grateful for is the fact that I think we have set forth a raod map by which other female organizations that operate this way, where you do have kind of a head of an organization and an inner circle of people who are enabling sex crimes and other types of crimes that this is a way for an enterprise like this to be taken down. You know, hopefully it will serve as a deterrent for other people who would get involved in these sorts of criminal organizations and support people who are abusing power
Moira Penza 1:03:15
And so right now, you know, the R Kelly case that’s happening in the Eastern District of New York, that indictment is heavily modeled off the Nxivm indictment. And so I look at that, as you know, an example of a way in which hopefully, going forward people will use the way we prosecuted the Nxivm case as a way to take down other criminal organizations that don’t look like traditional organized crime, but really do operate that way.
Sarah Edmonson 1:03:44
That must make you feel good. I’m so proud of you. Yeah. It’s a really big deal. Somebody actually sent us an article saying that R Kelly case was like the NXIVM case on steroids in terms of everything that they found and the parallels and correlations and maybe an essay this off and like, obviously, we wish we’d made different decisions. But what we’re doing now and being a part of and just like the smallest part of this whole thing is like wow, this is really impactful.
Moira Penza 1:04:12
You know, I think you’re on you’re selling your impact because really it was that article started it. You were one of the first people that I interviewed. We spent many, many hours of the over the course of days and you know that tiny windowless conference room with broken chairs and you graduate your green juices and all of these things. And you know, I didn’t know very much at that point in time. And you know, you taught me a lot and it was, as I said, it was a steep learning curve, but you were definitely a big part of that. So appreciate it and I’m so happy. You know, I’m so happy for how well you and nip you’re doing and your family and I think you know, that’s one of the other things that really stands out to me is that there’s no one I can tell who was doing better or happier or more successful in Nxivm except the people I guess who are in jail now, but everyone else is doing so much better.
Sarah Edmonson 1:05:09
Anthony Ames 1:05:09
Oh my god. Yeah.
Moira Penza 1:05:11
So, you know, it just shows that this whole premise was, you know, such a farce and not that I don’t understand how people got brought into it. And you know, I hope I say that with enough sensitivity, but I know a lot of time has gone by now that really I mean, it’s just uniformly like people are dealing with stuff right it’s obviously going to take a while but everyone is doing better.
Sarah Edmonson 1:05:33
Anthony Ames 1:05:34
And everyone knows and everyone who hasn’t reconciled their delusion is and refuses is doing worse.
Sarah Edmonson 1:05:39
Yeah. They can’t get work.
Anthony Ames 1:05:42
I gotta say, I told you, you know, June of 17, I thought four or 5 or 10 years, we were going to be dealing with litigation. And because of what you and the team at the United States government did, we’re thriving, and I get emotional, thinking about where my life could have have gone had it not been for you guys. So thank you for doing what you do.
Moira Penza 1:06:04
Thank you. Well, it was a pleasure speaking to you when I hope we get to see each other again. I appreciate being on and I’m so happy that you and your beautiful family are doing so well.
Sarah Edmonson 1:06:17
And you too, but such an exciting job and your mom and you know it’s just so wonderful to know you and I’m so glad our paths crossed in this weird way
Sarah Edmonson 1:06:41
How awesome was that?
Anthony Ames 1:06:42
I know it was an inspiring guest. May have been my favorite? it’s just it was just so good to hear the behind the scenes and and have faith in a system that will allow this kind of stuff to exist, however imperfect.
Sarah Edmonson 1:06:58
The thing that really stuck out for me is the fact that he had so much due process. An excessive amount of due process.
Anthony Ames 1:07:05
He had the best due process money could buy.
Sarah Edmonson 1:07:08
Anthony Ames 1:07:08
In human history, on planet Earth.
Sarah Edmonson 1:07:11
A long trial..
Anthony Ames 1:07:12
You know, one thing that we forgot. Did you know that there’s only one other person in the United States history who had higher bail than her was Michael Milken? Her bail was 100 million the only the person who had a higher bail set was Michael Milken he was like this insider trader from the 80s Because his was even more.
Sarah Edmonson 1:07:35
So in other words, the government took this very seriously.
Anthony Ames 1:07:37
Case closed! 120!
Sarah Edmonson 1:07:40
Well, justice has been served. Do you have anything to say, about justice?
Anthony Ames 1:07:43
You know, I might I might
Sarah Edmonson 1:07:45
Anthony Ames 1:07:49
It’s interesting. The concept of justice in essence, is a beautiful thing. Taken at its most minimal set, done correctly by human beings, it can in essence, be a reflection of the universe which is equilibrium at all times. Justice of essence can be an equilibrium for human beings in as much as anger doesn’t inform justice. Now, anger, as I’ve transcended My anger is a tool. And it doesn’t mean you’re hateful. But if your justice comes from a hateful place, then justice has been suspended. Therefore, any sort of due process that is informed by hate is invalid.
Sarah Edmonson 1:08:24
So wouldn’t that also maje the universe invalid?
Anthony Ames 1:08:31
Yes, a lot of A causes B causes C here.
Sarah Edmonson 1:08:34
Oh Nippy. I love you. Have I told you that recently?
Anthony Ames 1:08:44
Sarah Edmonson 1:08:45
See? Rain Man mind. Thanks. Everybody, for listening. Please join us next time.
Anthony Ames 1:10:18