Marty Rathbun: How People Change After Scientology

This is an example of only one exchange I had on the Marty Rathbun Scientology blog back in 2010, when he was the leader of the second Independent Scientology Movement, and Mike Rinder was helping to moderate, mostly in the background.

Samuel | October 25, 2010 at 8:10 am | Reply
As an afterthought: at corporate c of m events “LRH stories” are treated as almost “confidential”, handed out sparsely and almost without context so as not to get a proper picture of the whole – just another way, really, of saying, Sarge and other old-old timers, please continue …

Alanzo | October 25, 2010 at 2:14 pm | Reply
Over on the Ex-Scientologist Message Board, there are lots of people like DartsMohen, Mystic (Gordon Bell), the late Alan Walter, and many others who have told lots of first hand stories about LRH and the development of the tech.

Some of the original members of the Sea Project are there, staff members and students from Saint Hill, some of the original crew from the Apollo, Mission Into Time, and of course many of the staff and crew when Ron developed OT 3 and many other OT levels are all there.
There are even 1 or 2 who were in Phoenix with Ron in the early 50′s, who did the Hubbard Professional Course with him there.

There are lots of first hand stories to be heard on L Ron Hubbard.

So come on over to ESMB.

It’s what all the cool kids are doing!

(NOTE: After this initial post of mine above, I was blocked from being able to post on Marty’s blog, unable to respond to any one else’s comments for a few days or weeks. This was a normal moderation pattern for me posting to Marty’s blog)

martyrathbun09 | October 25, 2010 at 2:27 pm | Reply
Mostly by folk with monstrous self-importance buttons, from the motivatorish, small-minded viewpoints of those who wanted to be the man, but couldn’t be the man, cause they weren’t the man. That is why I say you all are really DM supporters by a another name. He hates LRH as much as you all do. Try posting a simple, factual day-in-the-life story about Hubbard that doesn’t have some sinister slant there and get run out of town in a New York minute. Alanzo, I suggest you watch the Larry King interview with John Stewart, with particular emphasis on his view of what has happened with US media and its fixation for feeding the public with personal outpoints about people. People like you act “open minded”, but in fact are part of a cult. The cult destroys any idea or observation that doesn’t coincide with the pack mentality. Acknowledged by you, as evidenced in your last line with exclamation point.

Cat Daddy | October 25, 2010 at 4:37 pm | Reply
Phil Spickler. Nuff said.

Valkov | October 26, 2010 at 7:58 am | Reply
It is totally absurd to compare Phil Spickler to Mystic or Smohen from ESMB, if that’s what you’re doing, CD.

Axiom142 | October 25, 2010 at 9:57 pm | Reply
I hope you will take this in the spirit that it is intended.

Complete bollocks!

Most of the guys I have come to know on ESMB have no ‘button’ whatsoever on self-importance and your description of people “who wanted to be the man” is unrecognisable to me. And the fact remains that there are many people there who knew LRH and have their own stories to tell.

Tarring them with the same dirty brush just because they don’t have the same view as you is something that I saw too often in the CoS and one of the things that convinced me that things were very wrong. When I met you in London, you impressed upon me the importance of ‘multiple viewpoints’. Well, you are getting some now and you appear to be rejecting them because of some pre-conceived notions about the subject. Aren’t you doing exactly the thing that you have accused DM and his minions of?

And as for saying that we “all are really DM supporters by another name” is frankly ludicrous and obviously untrue. There are many, many ESMBers who have taken positive action to expose and bring to an end the abuses committed by the Tiny Tyrant and his cronies. I don’t like to mention this because I’m sure it is a sore point with many here, but there are plenty of ESMB regulars who were speaking out and protesting the abuses while many of your regulars continued to toe the line and went along with the flow even though they knew things were very rotten in the heart of Scientology. And just so we’re clear on this, I am including myself in the latter category. It was reading the personal stories of those brave few who posted on ESMB and other sites, that convinced me that I had to leave and helped me to find the courage to GTFO.

You are entitled to have your own opinions Marty and I respect what you have achieved here. But I won’t stand by and see you unjustly malign a group that has helped so many people escape the evil embrace of the cult. You aren’t the only one who is doing something about it and just because we don’t always agree with you, doesn’t make us all wrong.


martyrathbun09 | October 26, 2010 at 1:41 am | Reply
Re-read my post. I wasn’t even talking about you, unless of course you all really have become a cult and you instinctively take every criticism to a select segment of the group as against you personally. Jeez, OSA could use a few more good soldiers like that. Oh, yeah, several of those who are black PRing LRH on the natter boards ARE IN FACT OSA already.

Bryon | October 26, 2010 at 3:04 am | Reply
Thank you Marty – this bears repeating — OSA really does black PR on LRH. I wonder how they worked it all out to be the “greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics”?

Valkov | October 26, 2010 at 7:21 am | Reply
Axiomguy, I have to say I read Marty’s comment as referring to the 3 people Al named – Mystic, Dart Smohen, and Alan Walter, as the people with “big self-importance buttons”.

Al did not mention that others of a more positive slant post there too. Even Karen deLac has introduced herself there.

Alan Walter is no longer with us, but for some reason Al chose to reference 2 of the biggest LRH denigrators on ESMB. Strikes me as really pissing in the soup, especially in this thread which was all about Sarge’s story, which many of us have been waiting and hoping for, for quite a while.

It not only seems like a Grinchy and inappropriate thing to do, but seems like an ad hom or “dead agenting” of ESMB by Al, to mention just those 2 as somehow representative of ESMB. How do you feel, being associated with Mystic, for example?

Talk about big-time 3rd party action. But no doubt Al will get love-bombed by some of his cronies over there, for successfully widening the rift between various groups of exes.

What a tool he now seems! Major footnuke by Al, just to curry some favor from those he thinks of as ESMB’s “opinion leaders”! Which they are not.

Valkov | October 26, 2010 at 8:38 am | Reply

At risk of repeating some of what I posted above to Axiom142, which you should also read, this one’s for you.

I think you completely miss the point of why we are here, reading Sarge’s story about LRH and other posts. We are here to enjoy the ambience, the friendliness of reminiscence, the pleasure of hearing something good about LRH for a change.

The tabloid scandal-focused gossipy style of “reporting” negative information about LRH is all over the Internet. There are clambake type sites galore, almost totally one-sided. Anybody can see that. And spin and slant that’s put on it aside, some of the negative information may well be true. Some may well be false, as well.

So you tell us, Al, where do we go when we want to hear some honest positive, feel-good stories about LRH from someone who actually knew him?

What if we’re not in the mood for (yet another) “shocking documentary expose of LRH”.
What if we want to hear some stories about his good side? (Assuming you even believe he had one. I believe he did, myself. It is evident in much of his writing and his lectures).

So tell us, Alanzo-tulpa, where do we go to hear the good things about LRH?

You can cry “censorship” or “information control” all you want, but if you find yourself being rejected on a blog like this one, or getting banned, it is really because you are either one really socially retarded dude, or a mercenary with an agenda that just does not fit with this community.

You remind me of a realtor-neighbor of mine, who always attends the neighborhood Memorial Day picnic, but we all know he’s there to prospect for people who want to buy or sell a house, not because he likes our company and wants to kick back, enjoy some good eats, maybe chat and maybe just be a bit contemplative.

At least he has the good sense not to talk about American soldiers in terms of how many atrocities they may have committed before they died.

He has an agenda, in other words. And so do you, but your agenda is not the same as ours. You’re trawling(prospecting) for recruits for your club(cult?) here, and it doesn’t fit. It’s not what we’re here for. We’re here for stories we like and pleasant company.

So when you come along and piss in Sarge’s soup, what kind of reception do you expect? If it’s motivators you’re looking for, hell, I can give you plenty of those!

But for now, I’ll continue to try to be helpful, and just suggest you get a book by Miss Manners and read it cover-to-cover and try to socialize yourself.

bigawatts | October 25, 2010 at 6:19 pm | Reply
How about getting some good standard auditing to clean up your BPC? You know you’d feel a whole lot better and life a whole lot brighter.

BTW, I knew Alan Walters personally. There were things about him that were quite disturbing, but can all be attributed to his huge ego. Take a look and see for yourself just how much he really cared for his fellow man.

atcause | October 27, 2010 at 2:01 am | Reply
There is a lot of truth in Marty’s response to Alanzo.

Alanzo’s thinking is very reactive and fixed. I know from first hand experience. This is the same guy who once had a big argument with me on ESMB supporting electric shocking people.

This is what he said on ESMB after Marty’s response and his justification for posting here:
“Information Control is my main target: Information control on all flows. Break up the information control on all flows and any possibility of a cult, mind control, or any vestiges of brainwashing, are gone. Gone, Baby, Gone. Socrates said that. Not me. ”

This is the same ESMB who’s registration is now frozen and that has no tolerance for a pro LRH or Scientology viewpoint. If you express one, you will be gang attacked and eventually banned, as I was. ESMB has become a closed cult in its own sense.

martyrathbun09 | October 27, 2010 at 2:37 am | Reply
His plea for no “information control” is a plea for the reactive mind to reign.

Valkov | October 27, 2010 at 6:39 am | Reply
A word about Alanzo. Without prejudice, let me say this. I have interacted with Al a lot on Geir’s (now Claire’s) forum over the past year. I have a back ground in psychiatry/psychology, and more than 8 months ago, I began to believe that Al had received ECT at some point in his life, possibly after his break with the Co$.

ECT typically produces personality changes that exactly correspond with the 2 Atcause mentioned – fixidity and reactivity, or rote responses on some topics.

Unfortunately, it is also true that some people experience a relief from suffering when they receive ECT, and feel that ECT helped them in a way nothing else did. Thus they will defend it. There are “ECT survivors” organizations, like “The Committe for Truth in Psychiatry”. (Google for it, please). This is not allied with CCHR, and one must be an “ECT survivor” to be a member. These people have testified before Congress. Their beef with psychiatry is not that ECT is bad, but that psychiatry has failed to fully disclosed the “other effects” of ECT – like the memory loss and personality changes, and impairments of mental functioning that occur all too often. It is as a result of this group in particular, that psychiatry has been forced to do a lot more disclosure of the risks, require a waiver to be read and signed, and in most states, do away with involuntary administration of ECT.

My point here is, many of these “survivors” still say ECT “helped” them by providing a relief from their suffering, usually a serious overwhelming depression, when all other means available to them had failed. Thus they will defend ECT and insist that it be available to those who really want it.

As for Al, I of course don’t know, it is an inference on my part. The way he acts is consistent with what I have speculated, and it is no way intended to denigrate or diminish him, or make him look bad. If it is as Ithink, more power to him, that he has survived.

It is speculation based on what I have gathered about the after effects of ECT on a person. He is an intelligent and at times likeable person. Unfortunately, he also has a fixed agenda I suspect he is powerless to deal with.

If I am wrong, and he really is acting completely on his own determinism, then let’s lynch him and get it over with, or just take him to the Humane Society and…..

OK, for the literal-minded out there, please do not take my joke and spin it that I am promoting euthanasia. It is a joke that Al, knowing me, The Feral White Russian from Manchuria, I think would understand as a joke.

If you do take it literally and post such calumny about me, I will send the Russian Mafia after you….

R. Hill | October 29, 2010 at 3:12 pm | Reply
martyrathbun09: “His plea for no “information control” is a plea for the reactive mind to reign.”
Do you realize that is an argument David Miscavige can also put forth as a rationale to control information for the “benefit” of Church of Scientology good-standing members?

martyrathbun09 | October 30, 2010 at 1:32 am | Reply
R, what he is describing as constituting “information control” is a plea for R6 to reign. I offer the bulk of his communication on this blog as exhibit A. I know for a fact you don’t let guys come into your home and denigrate, backstab, and enturbulate you daily. I don’t think I should be held to a different standard.

atcause | October 30, 2010 at 8:33 pm | Reply
I totally agree Marty.

Marty, your doing a great job.

I think that before someone can truly criticize LRH or Scientology tech, they have to provide a better alternative at the same time. They are always telling you that this is bad and that is bad but they never provide any solutions themselves to what ills man. They say LRH did this and LRH did that, what did they ever do to save mankind?

One more thing, Marty do you want a real laugh? You know, a real knee smacker. One of the biggest posting nut balls on ESMB ( Zinj ) actually believes that the reason you don’t post on ESMB is because they don’t “gush” affinity or admiration to you enough. You know, they aren’t “gushers”.

Can you actually believe that they think that’s the reason you don’t waste your time in that degraded 1.5/1.1 sewer?

Valkov | October 27, 2010 at 6:24 am | Reply
ESMB’s registration may be frozen because Emma wanted to retire from running it and was looking for how to do so. She has found a new Admin, and will continue in the background maintaining the dedicated server and tech support for the forum. I think she will also do some posting, now that she is free of her Admin role. I’m guessing registrations will be re-opening.

In some respects, Atcause, I must disagree with your viewpoint on ESMB. ESMB has been likened to a “City”. This is very apt. It is not a little homogenous village; in a city dwell all kinds. A city has many different neighborhoods. Some you do not want to go into at night; some you want to get out of as fast as you can, if you don’t fit in. Some have comfortable coffeehouses where you don’t mind at all visiting for awhile and chatting with the people there. ESMB is like a city.

It is also true that it has been dominated to some extent by “antis”. This is natural, since there has not been an outspoken “pro” community until now, and after all, allthose peopleleft scientology for a reason, or a myriad of individual reasons. But they all left because it wasn’t working out. Some of the bitterest-sounding “critics” of LRH admit they still use some of the tech.

At this point, demonizing ESMB is counter productive. To avoid ESMB is like the Co$ staff hiding from Anon protestors. You put yourself at effect and the negative posters at cause over you, if you runaway from them.

There is a clique within ESMB who perhaps think of themselves as “THE opinion leaders of ESMB”. These are the few. They are the “big man on campus” types, legends in their own minds. They are also the ones Alanzo tries to curry favor with. He is like a young kid trying to impress the older “hoods” with “Watch me! I’m gonna run in there and throw a thought grenade in among them! Watch me do it! I’m cool enough to hang with you guys, huh? huh? huh?”

Emma herself started a thread introducing Karen#1 toESMB, and made it known she expected all to treat Karen in a seemly manner.

This has become a very long thread. My point is Emma has always set a high standard of conduct of posters towards each other. Everyone is free to express their own opinion anddisagree with others. But there are limits and rules, as there must be in any civilized society. But free speech rules.

I am trying to say that the culture of ESMB is basically founded on very positive principles of free speech.To the extent it has an anti scn or anti LRH flavor, is that there are not enough pro posters there, and because a few strongly critical antis have been dominant. It’s not that easy to get banned from ESMB. A person has to engage in some extremely unseemly disputes with others there, to get banned. Terril posts there regularly, catches the same flak from the same few posters regularly, and goes on posting.

My point is, on ESMB, barking dogs are allowed to bark, cats fight loudly at times, but there are many extremely intelligent people there. Many have done a lot of Bridge, and a lot of training.

It’s an interesting place, but don’t go there unless you have a strong stomach, a high confront for disagreeable (to you)opinions, a good ability to state your position, and high ARC = Understanding of others. And make sure you understand the rules there, as you would anywhere else.

atcause | October 27, 2010 at 7:31 pm | Reply
He is like a young kid trying to impress the older “hoods” with “Watch me! I’m gonna run in there and throw a thought grenade in among them! Watch me do it! I’m cool enough to hang with you guys, huh? huh? huh?”

I agree. I think that’s just what Alonzo and others from ESMB do from time to time. They know that Marty and the Independents are in the front seat driving the reformation and that they are in the back seat, and it pisses them off.

R. Hill | October 29, 2010 at 2:52 pm | Reply
It appears Alonzo doesn’t mind expressing his views on fora he doesn’t control. My opinion is that it is a sign of intellectual health for one to allow himself to post and exchange ideas and views on fora which are not under one’s control. This means one trust his ideas and views to speak for themselves, while censorship and ad hom are an implied admission of poor confidence in one’s own ideas or views.

martyrathbun09 | October 30, 2010 at 1:36 am | Reply
And what is Alonzo producing? I find free-for-all, 1.1 attempts to undermine – with zero give and take – suppressive.

Contrast that last statement about me from Marty, knowing that I was blocked from being able to “give and take”, to this:

Back then, I could not predict that Marty Rathbun would ever be any different than he was when he first emerged out of Scientology and onto the Internet. And because of the training that both he and Mike Rinder received – the very worst of Scientology from LRH’s infamous Network Orders – I felt that with the way those guys were operating at that time, under the very worst of Scientology brainwashing, their Scientology propaganda needed to be opposed, and that the Independent Scientologists they were leading needed to start questioning them and their own Scientology programming by the cult.

Looking back, I doubt if I did any good for anyone, especially myself. Those toxic battles with “Indy OSA” as I came to call them, took a toll on me and were very corrosive to my soul. I lost way too many friends and made way too many enemies. But no matter the damage to myself personally, I felt I had to do it.

Oh well. Hindsight bias is 20/20, I guess.

I’m glad to see that, 5 years later, Marty and Mike and most all of the Indies from that time have exhumed their own humanity and have chosen to be members of Planet Earth again. I know that nothing I did, or that anybody else did, caused that process in them.

Like all of us, it was our own doing to adopt the Scientology ideology and to let it do our thinking for us, and it was our own doing to start thinking for ourselves again.

“By one’s self evil is done
By one’s self, evil is undone.”

– Buddha, The Dhammapada

Some day, maybe I’ll learn that.


10 thoughts on “Marty Rathbun: How People Change After Scientology”

  1. And just to show that I myself changed in the way that Marty has, here is a letter I wrote to LA Weekly in 1997, when I was still blazing fully as a Scientologist:

    23 Dec 97

    Harold Meyerson
    Executive Editor – LA Weekly
    PO Box 4315
    Los Angeles, CA 90078

    Dear Mr. Meyerson –

    Covert hostility means secret hostility. Someone who is covertly hostile is often two-faced and hypocritical: They’re likely to make a big show about how much they support reform and improvement in education, for example, while they simultaneously discredit or attempt to destroy the efforts of those who are actually reforming and improving education.

    A covertly hostile newspaper will put up a front of journalistic integrity, for instance, pretending to report the facts of a news item, while never actually looking into any real sources for the article, or allowing the real facts to get out. Instead, they’ll pass along rumor, innuendo, veiled and sarcastic aspersions, all dressed-up – in leather and whips – as facts.

    The reason they must keep their hostility secret is because they are afraid. So I think covert hostility is a fitting depiction of the LA Weekly’s approach to the world, and especially to members of The Church of Scientology.

    But if the LA Weekly really wishes to graduate from Covert Hostility to plain, old, Hostility (1.1 to 1.9 on the emotional Tone Scale), y’all will have to face one thing: What are you so afraid of?


  2. Paul Haggis said it so well in today’s article at The Underground Bunker. It’s like being in love with a narcissist, where you believe you see something special your friends just don’t understand.

    I was bullied in school, and it was not pleasant. Marty’s comment in 2010 was harsh, but what followed afterwards was sickening. Unfortunately, I believe I have been like this as well. I am beginning to see that I have behaved like an Internet bully, laughing at scientology and scientologists from a safe distance. How to atone?

    I think we are all acting out and exhausting patterns. It is encouraging to see that we can change.

    • I tell ya: The “Independent Scientologists Movement” of the late 2000s was made up of some of the most obnoxious Scientologists ever.

      They’ve all pretty much cooled down in the last few years after “decompressing” for a while.

      But I do not know of any who have apologized for how obnoxious they were.

      I guess operating on the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics means never having to say you’re sorry.


    • I’ve misplaced it.

      I know it was around here somewhere…. it must be all the Ritalin/Prozac/ElectroShock I’ve had.

      Long term memory’s shot! 🙂

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