Tony Ortega Should Publicly Apologize to Carmen Llywelyn

Carmen Llywelyn

Carmen Llywelyn: Brave Ex-Scientologist Who Speaks Out on the Abuses of Scientology

I’ve had a lot of Ex-Scientologists contact me about their negative experiences in dealing with Tony Ortega, but this one takes the cake.

Carmen Llywelyn is an Ex-Scientologist who has spoken out a lot in the media about the abuses she has seen and suffered in Scientology, and is the author of “Why I Left Scientology” which appeared on Gawker in June of 2015.

She was also interviewed on RADAR Online about her experiences as the then-wife of actor Jason Lee and part of the celebrity clique at the Scientology Celebrity Centre in Hollywood. Her inside account of what it’s like in the center of the bubble of Scientology celebrity was a rare first-hand glimpse into a world so many journalists try to write about, such as Tony Ortega himself, but few ever see.

So why do you think Tony Ortega said this about Carmen Llywelyn on his blog – out of nowhere and prompted by nothing in particular?

tony ortega denigrates Carmen llywelyn

And here’s what his flying monkeys chimed in with on Tony’s cue:

Carmen Llywelyn

In her Open Letter to the Proprietor of Scientology Tony Ortega, Carmen recounts that any contact she had with Tony Ortega consisted of a 10 minute phone call where Tony did most of the talking.

Tony says above “…make of that what you will”.

Here’s what I make of it: This Ex-Scientologist is courageously exposing herself to Scientology Fair Game and warning the public about the abuses she has personally witnessed in Scientology, and while she is in the middle of doing that, Tony Ortega tries to undermine her work in exposing Scientology and discredit her on his blog.

While Tony Ortega has done some good for some Ex-Scientologists, he also does this kind of thing to other Ex-Scientologists, as well.

As a never-in, Tony has no idea what it is like to have been involved in Scientology. And from what I have seen of him, he doesn’t really care to, either. He has repeatedly shown his contempt and disrespect for anyone who would get themselves involved in Scientology, or in any other spiritual activity.

So here’s something Tony Ortega needs to get: Scientology does their very best to humiliate anyone who leaves. On top of that, the experience of losing all your friends, your business contacts, your family members – the whole life that you built during your years as a Scientologist – is an extremely demeaning and degrading experience. Often, it takes years for an Ex-Scientologist to get their self-esteem back after having experienced the business end of Scientology.

But if an Ex-Scientologist summons the courage to speak out in the media, rising above all of that, as Carmen Llywelyn has?

That Ex deserves all the support in the world – and NOT this kind of degradation from a sneering and shallow reporter who has infinite disrespect for the very people he is trying to make a buck off of as a “reporting columnist working the Scientology beat”.

Tony Ortega should publicly apologize to Carmen Llywelyn for trying to undermine her work and discredit her on his blog.

Alanzo

Sort by:   newest | oldest
Miss Tia
Guest

I believe the contempt and disrespect is shown for some ex-Scientologists and not others because some basically worship at his feet and he enjoys the adulation. Though he always tries to portray himself as modest. He does play modest very well; but if you look under the veneer in a detached way you’ll see it’s an act.

When I read Carmen’s Open Letter I totally believed her about the 10 minute phone call and that no extensive interviewing took place. Perhaps he realized her narrative wouldn’t match the one he was creating? Or perhaps she didn’t pay proper ‘respect’ to him? I have no idea and those are assumptions on my part. Only Tony can answer those questions. We know he will not. The comment he made was very akin to ‘fair game’. It’s almost like this is some kind of game to him and he doesn’t realize he’s dealing with real flesh and blood people who have been around the mill and back, are vulnerable, and are trying to regain a sense of a new normal in a life without Scientology.

If the vulnerabilities can’t be exploited for HIS gain, then perhaps that’s where the discrediting comes into play. I have no idea. I do know there are favorites, as anyone can tell from even short visits to the bunker. For some reason their vulnerability is treated with sensitivity. Why is others’ treated with disdain? How is that ethical journalism to let some kind of personal feelings come through to such an extent? A good example of that is Marty Rathbun. But this is a comment about Carmen.

Tony reads all the comments posted. He has said that in the bunker. There were commenters posting trying to psychoanalyze Carmen, diagnose her, then someone–no real name given–piped in saying they knew her and she was crazy. Bunkerites lapped that up and took that as truth. Then someone, in this same thread, put forth the conspiracy theory that perhaps the Scientologists had gotten to Carmen AND Marty Rathbun as both were writing against Tony and the bunker around the same time. Cuz basically you’d have to be crazy to not agree with Tony and the bunker group think? It’s called seeing how things really are. Those comments should have been deleted. I bet they’re still there.

So not only does Tony attempt to fair game and black PR Carmen, he allows commenters to do so too. I’m sure he’d claim it’s free speech. Yet, he tries to claim he was protecting someone from you, Alanzo, who was pointing out their unethical behavior–he claimed it was a threat, and as usual, everyone fell in line and agreed, though they never saw what you had written. It’s hypocrisy and censorship as a general rule.

Tony would never apologize to Carmen, as I’m sure in his mind he did nothing wrong. He’s the one who has to live with himself. The more people who speak out about questionable ethics on his part, hypocrisy, and how he’ll attempt to influence others against those he doesn’t like–for whatever reason—the more the light will be shown upon the truth about Tony and the bunker. It’s unfortunate his back handed shenanigans will ultimately probably discredit a lot of his good reporting work.

Carmen Llywelyn
Guest

Miss Tia, Alanzo, thank you. I’ve begun to speak with lawyers about possible litigation against Tony. I believe his sadistic handling of myself & some other ex’s needs to be throughly investigated. People’s rights have been trashed like they’re worthless & this is inhuman. The last time I checked I had the right to privacy & quality of life. I’d also like for the other details about the harassment Ive gone through to come out in public & Im ready to name names. If anyone else is interested in joining suit please let me know. But one thing I’m very adamant about is finding out who this person is at The Bunker who’s lying about knowing me. Let me be clear, this person does not know me & I have no idea that is. I would never be friends with someone so egocentric & cruel to engage in abuse. Not after what Ive been through. This person needs to be exposed & brought to justice. I plan to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law. Ive made no secret that I’ve had a stalker who I know has hacked into my personal phone & endangered me & my family in real life. If anyone can find out who this person is, I would greatly appreciate it because I’ve got a victim impact statement that I can’t wait to read to him. This person has unjustly gone on a campaign to hurt & discredit me. Why? For attention? Because he’s sick? Yes most likely, but that’s not my problem anymore. I will get justice for my children. Thank you guys more than words can express for bringing me that much closer to getting real resolution.

Miss Tia
Guest

Whereas Tony’s comments are unmoderated—which is understandable due to the # of them, the time that would take, etc—those comments made about you Carmen should have been deleted when finally seen! I was, and am still, appalled at that discussion where they trying to dissect your mental health, then that person–with no real name–strolls along and says they knew you, you were crazy and SOLD! They bought it with out looking at the merchandise!

Those kinds of statements are dangerous, possibly defamatory, but hey, that’s the kind of atmosphere that’s fostered if someone isn’t in the ‘in crowd’. Not to mention the aforementioned conspiracy theory that Scientologists got to you and to Marty, hence why you both criticizing Tony and the Bunker around the same time. Because you’d have to be crazy to criticize Tony and the Bunker OR have been paid by Scientologists to do it! Not that you saw the reality of the situation, saw how lives were being used as toys with no regard that people lives should NOT be a plaything. No ethics, no conscience, no concern about those on the ‘outs’.

Exploitation of the vulnerable while claiming to be a champion of the vulnerable. I’m sorry I participated for so long. I guess I want to try to ‘make amends’ to ensure people know what goes on now, especially individuals who’ve been impacted, such as yourself Carmen. Ex-Scientologists have already been thru Scientology, I guess they need to know they might, sometimes, have to run the gauntlet at the bunker and try to get thru that. No one should have to go through anything else after Scientology. Just like in Scientology there are good people in the bunker, who do/say things they wouldn’t normally say elsewhere; but the group think takes over.

Carmen Llywelyn
Guest

Thank you so much Alanzo. Much much love brother.

Lone Star
Guest

Thanks Alanzo for bringing this situation regarding Carmen up. For some reason I missed this story last year.

Suffice it to say that over the last few months I have increasingly become aware that the world of Scientology Critics is deeply flawed. I think it’s mostly due to the never-ins, but the exes such as myself don’t all have clean hands either. All I know is that the rank and file still-ins I personally know are people I’d rather hang out with than many critics. Oh, and these still-ins know that I’m an Ex and have no desire to go back, yet they still don’t disconnect from me or ream me out for “not thinking correctly”. Funny that they are less condemning and more tolerant than many critics and exes on the internet. Hmmmm….

I wish you all the best Carmen and hope you find resolution soon.

Oh….and Howdy Miss Tia! I remember you!

Miss Tia
Guest

Howdy Lone Star! I remember you too! 🙂

Lone Star
Guest

Oh Miss Tia….They are asking about you over at The Bunker today! Lol… I’m sure it won’t be long for at least one of them to read your post here and say, “WTF?” TheHoleDoesNotExist blew a few weeks ago. Oh my!! Not saying that you have officially blown, but in a way I guess you have. You’ve dared to question The Ortega. Oh my! You definitely need to report to Ethics! Lol….

Thanks for the welcome Alanzo.

Miss Tia
Guest

Oh yeah, I had some group love bombing going on Saturday. It was weird af how/why I suddenly got all these emails from people I hadn’t heard from–in some cases MONTHS–basically saying the same thing. Now there are a couple bunkerites I do still communicate with (well probably not after they see these comments and my comments at Carmen’s); but this was people I hadn’t communicated with, didn’t really want to and it was just ‘you think I can’t see through this?!’ The time to have sent such emails would have been when it was announced I was stepping down from HC like 3 weeks ago or so. I’m not stupid, though some people think I am! 🙂

Despite my repeated statements that I am DONE with the bunker, and even scientology watching, I guess some people think they can manipulate me to come back? Not happening. I’m gonna write about my disillusionment with the bunker and how I started to SEE what goes on and the parallels with Scientology later (tomorrow). I can’t stress enough there are very good kind caring people in the bunker (just like Scientology); but they end up doing things they normally wouldn’t do due to the ‘group think’/’hive mentality’ (just like Scientology). I’m ashamed of myself that I didn’t see it before.

I ‘banned’ myself by deleting my disqus. I also told people, who had asked, I was done with Sci Watching too. I guess some people don’t quite understand when “I’m done” it means “I’m done”. HowdyCon was the last straw for me though, and that was severely affecting my physical health mostly due to the shenanigans of one person (not Tony). I was still reading there when Hole deleted her disqus, after having posted she was happy, then poof, gone. I have heard a few others have done that too. I don’t know nor would wish to guess at why they did that. I can only speak for myself. And I shall. I was somewhat fearful of them–because, like Scientology, they will follow you, fair game you, black PR you, and today I was like “—k this” [I don’t want to swear on your blog Alanzo] “this is ridiculous, if that person who made my life hell for a few months can lack a conscience they continue on their merry way leaving me broken in the rear view mirror, why should I worry about what they’ll do?” I’m already broke, damaged, and I know I can isolate myself from whatever is posted there! 🙂 Can’t see it, don’t know about it! It’d be more a reflection upon them than me anyway.

NO FEAR!!! Speaking out!! Thank you Alanzo for having this platform! MUCH appreciated!!

Claire M Swazey
Guest

Hi, Lone Star!!!!

Hahahaha!!

Lone Star
Guest

Bwahahahah!!! Oh my all the ol’ rascals are coming out! So good to see you Dahling!

What? Is Mark A. Baker going to show up next? Lol… Damn….I hope so!

Claire M Swazey
Guest

Mark’s a good guy. I don’t blame him for leaving the forum.

Lone Star
Guest

I agree. I’ve missed Mark over the past few years. I’ve missed you as well. You were treated unfairly over there. Unfortunately I was one of the ones who was unfair. That whole groupthink thing. Not using that as an excuse. I’m just aware of it now and as they say, “I’m handling it”.

Claire Swazey
Guest

Hi, Lone Star. Thing with you is I never knew if I’d be talking to Jekyll or Hyde any given day. I do appreciate your kind words.

I finally realized that it eeally wasn’t what I said- but that I was the one saying it. People would go unglued when I wrote the most vanilla sort of post.

That’s why the Claire Swazey account is closed. My posts are responded to quite differently now.

Claire Swazey
Guest

Yep. So it puts the lie to “it’s always everyone else; it’s never you.”

Maybe it’s karma (maybe it’s Maybelline), but it’s ultimately the eye of the beholder.

Dave Gibbons
Guest

Looks like this is where the Ex-exes are hanging out these days. 🙂
Fair play to you, Alanzo, I approve of this Crusade!

Lone Star
Guest

Oh well…if Panda is showing up then I’m leaving!! Lol…. Of course I kid the Panda.

(There is definitely a disturbance in the Force tonight!)

Dave Gibbons
Guest

Lol. It’s all good, LS, let’s just say that your comment has been noted.
Now, back on the subject at hand…

Lone Star
Guest

Thanks. I duplicate your comm.

Dave Gibbons
Guest

Lol, I knew you’d remember that “noted” thing. Fun times. 🙂

singanddanceall
Guest

The bottom line will be forever, and ever, is that there are no “clears” or “OT’s” as Hubbard said his religion, science, technology, etc, can produce. LOL

Anyway that is communicated is a thumbs up.

Alex de Valera
Guest

So happy to get some news from Alanzo. I thought you were on vacation on target two playing ping pong with the Commodore around the Van Allen belt just for fun.
So sorry to hear the news of a stalker bothering Carmen. I wouldn’t try a legal action though. This sounds like an intelligence op. Divide to conquer. I spent many years in the cult of greed and 10 years in OSA. I agree with Tia, it was quite an experience. I had read Kant, Krishnamurti, Huxley and Orwell before I fell into the cauldron and ended up a boiled frog. I didn’t think I was mentally retarded to indulge in such nonsense. The trap is very subtle and Once we are out it takes long to heal. “Show me a f**** clear”. Blogging around and sharing one’s experiences is part of the healing process. My interest in following the demise of the cult is fading away. I don’t have the time but I have a moral debt since I contributed to the Frankenstein religion. Carmen don’t get distracted from the things you love in life, that would make happy those who want to hurt you.

Lone Star
Guest

From Feb of 2012 until April of this year I was mostly an ESMBer in the Scilon Watcher world. I was up until very recently a very occasional poster at The Bunker. I would go months and months without even looking at tonyortega.org so a lot was said and done there that escaped my attention.

I wasn’t actively reading The Bunker when you got banned Alanzo. If you were banned for taking up for the grieving mother of the child who committed suicide then that is truly disgusting. But, to be “fair and balanced” I noticed that the Bunkeroo named Snippy_X claims that you were actually banned for “going after a Bunkerista”:

Snippy_X > Mockingbird • 6 hours ago

“………Alonzo was not banned for that post about the grieving mother. He was banned for rudely going after a Bunkerista. That removes his right to stand in judgement of other’s behavior and basically negates his arguments above.”

I of course have no idea who the Bunkerista is, or if this allegation is true or not. As an infamous crusty old cantankerous man on cable TV says, “What say you?”

0tessa
Guest

Just found your website (thanks to mockingburd on Ortega’s).
I like reading you, Alanzo.
So, add me to your frequent readers.

M123
Guest

It is deplorable that Tony does such things to people risking so much to speak out. Those who do, do it to help others find solace and find a release themselves. I am sorry to hear that someone who is supposedly there to fight the evils of Scientology treats people who have left and want to help others leave so badly. Not only that he is evading the golden rule. “Do onto others as you would have done to yourself.” If he were to leave and wanted to share his story with this community, he might want to share his story on a site such as his. If he were to be shut down how would he feel?

This seems to be a fundamental flaw in people. We pick and choose based on personal biases and not content of the message sometimes. Sometimes it boils down to, will this garner me any new business. This is not appropriate in my mind. If your supposed objective is to help free those who have a heavy burden on their shoulders like scientology, at least an acknowledgement would be appropriate. Sadly this is a bad business practice as well. You never know what story will catapult your readership.

Maybe it’s time for someone else to step up and take on the cult of Scientology. Marty I am sure if you built a site or had someone do so for you, you could have many readers right off the bat. I know I would support your site in any way I can.

Axiom142
Guest

Who is this ‘Marty’ you are referring to?

Axiom142
Guest

Tell you what Al, why don’t you apologise on behalf of Tony and we can all go home? Or at least talk about something else.

Something I learned rather quickly was that journalists and other media people don’t always do or say what we would like them to. They have their own agendas. Fine, but if they can help inform the public about the true intentions of a sinister, malicious and destructive cult in our midst, then I think that is a good thing.

And what’s with this new found conciliatory attitude of yours? The Alanzo I knew and admired would never have advocated ‘no longer being at war’. He would have fought on until his last breath for whatever cause had got under his bonnet at that particular moment.

You are clearly not the real Alanzo. And the fact that Marty Rathbun is now quoting you, proves this.

I refuse to listen to anything you say. Ever.

Carmen Llywelyn
Guest

I gotta thank you again Alanzo & thanks to Miss Tia & everyone else here. Its good to meet you all. I think I’ve finally found my peeps! 🙂 It made me really happy to read ya’ll’s advice & good thoughts about all of this & I wanted to let you know how much it means to me. I finally feel like I’m among friends.

Lone Star
Guest

Well I’m honored to be in a place with people that you consider to be your peeps Carmen. I agree that what you’ve done is very valuable to many people. You’ve deserved more positive recognition. I’m glad you are now getting it.

AnonMomAnon
Guest

I’m sorry that Ortega made that comment about you, Carmen. Ortega cares nothing about retaining even a shred of journalistic integrity. I’ve also been through the proverbial wringer with Ortega. He allowed Mark Bunker to post a completely fabricated story about me and then let his minions try to rip me to shreds. He never contacted me directly to find out my side of the story and of course has never apologized. He could care less. I don’t stroke his massive ego so the truth about me doesn’t matter.

I have met Ortega face-to-face. He was extremely rude. I was not impressed and excused myself from the meeting very quickly after he told us that he was downtown with Mike Rinder like it was a big deal. He said that Rinder wouldn’t come across the street because he didn’t want to be photographed with anyone from “Anonymous.” I replied that I was glad he wasn’t coming across the street because I didn’t want to be photographed with HIM. Then I left.

Hold your head up. You have integrity and the respect of people who value the truth. Ortega does not.

Geir Isene
Guest

Alanzo: You have my support.

Claire Swazey
Guest

I won’t comment on Tony being wrong, right, mean, nice, fallible or infallible. No point.

What I will say is this: as has happened with just about every single dustup and mass fight or argument or feud amongst Scn critics- it starts with someone putting someone else on a pedestal. Then the fans of the person see the object of their admiration do things that show human nature rather than being some godlike boddhisattva type being. Person loses temper, says something others don’t like, or he makes a mistake or someone thinks he did. Then the people get upset. They thought they could rely on him. Now they can’t. Who knows what he could do next?

Then they talk to others and et voila -a faction is created. I’ve seen this with Minton, Brooks, Greenway, Armstrong, Anonymous, Tommy Gorman, the uh “Buttersquashers”, David Love…

It’s never ever a question of if it will happen again-it’s always a matter of when.

To me, it’s a rerun. Even if I see the guy in the library with a candlestick and Col. Mustard lying dead on the floor or I see a heavenly light come down with a light proclaiming “this is my only begotten journalist” I’m not going to think of this as anything BUT a rerun which there’s no point in perpetuating because, trust me, another one will be along eventually. (They’re like buses)

Meanwhile, there’s people being ripped off, imprisoned and even killed by CofS.

Claire Swazey
Guest

O you guys!

Mirna Minkoff
Guest

Alanzo, I remember you well from ESMB and several years ago you accused ESMB admins (& others) of being part of a vast conspiracy to help Marty Rathbun take over ESMB and other critic groups. What made you go from extreme paranoia and loathing of Marty to the president of his fan club and chief defender? 2009 Alanzo would accuse 2016 Alanzo of being a tool of Marty and doing the bidding of OSA.

So if you have had a drastic change of heart on Marty and his motivations don’t you owe an apology to all the people you accused of being agents for Scientology and Marty’s puppets? I would think it would be the easiest thing in the world if “you had one non-asshole cell” in your entire body.

Also, where is Zinjifar nowadays?

Claire Swazey
Guest

I see Zinj on Facebook – he’s friends with some people I know.

Lone Star
Guest

Well it was bound to happen sooner or later. Actually it took a little longer than I thought. What? The inference that OSA is behind this “attack” on Tony Ortega. Lol….

Someone is making this inference on ESMB. I’m sure it’s been made on The Bunker too, but I don’t have the time or the patience to look for it.

So Alanzo….has your check from OSA cleared yet? Lol….

(They pay me with free auditing….BWAHAHAHAHAH…. Actually someone will probably think I’m not kidding).

Lone Star
Guest

A consistent trait that is readily apparent to me among the exes and critics who post on the various boards and blogs is the tendency to not get up to speed on a given subject or topic before launching into an all out critical post. And of course hurling ad homs at the person or persons at the center of said subject or topic. Especially if they’ve already made up their mind about certain persons.

Alanzo how many times have you had to ask people to go and read past posts and get up to speed? Quite a few. Bob Eckert even confused Cathy Tweed with Cathy True! Not even close! Yet he was so adamant like he knew what the hell he was talking about, yet didn’t have an effing clue.

I just noticed on ESMB the rumblings are starting to pick up and will probably turn into a full roar as this evening wears on. (You will see a classic example of group think at its finest….aka piling on).

So far it is clear that those who are posting about these issues with Miss Tia, Cathy Tweed, and Carmen Llewelyn have not actually read what it’s all about yet, but feel compelled to weigh in with total certainty that you and Marty are “full of shit”. (Paraphrasing). They obviously glance over the headlines, maybe read a line hear or there and pontificate, “Oh this is just Marty being Marty again….and Alanzo well…pffffft….what’s his fucking problem? I thought he was on our side?”

That’s why I’m not involved with ESMB or The Bunker anymore. I was myself guilty far too often myself of piling on with little to no real information. At times I was the brunt of this and didn’t like it. Yet I did it to others as well. (Yep I have been a hypocrite). The only way I’ve found to stop it is just not be a part of a group that continues to do it with regularity and passion. We exes and critics are often so damn lazy in not taking even a little bit of time to do some actual reading and contemplating before going off and making proclamations of absolute certainty and sometimes condemnation.

If anyone from ESMB lurks here I’ll just say get your mind off of Marty and Alanzo and read up on the Carmen Llewelyn story. Read what SHE said. Read what Miss Tia said regarding her particular story. Then make up your own mind about whether they have a genuine beef or not.

Lone Star
Guest

It’s either funny or sad how otherwise intelligent people can’t seem to get over that in 2009 you, Alanzo, were a very strong critic of Marty Rathbun and now you are not.

I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer but I can do the math. That was seven years ago. Were the things that Marty were posting about regularly then the same as he is now? Wasn’t he still in essence a practicing Scientologist, albeit not in the cult? Hell, even by 2010 and 11 he was changing quite a bit.

I’m very disappointed in the sophistry that Karen is engaging in tonight on ESMB. She’s calling you a flip flopper as well as inferring OSA involvement. What a convenient, yet thoughtless charge to make. The situation on the ground is different now in 2016 than it was in 2009. You’ve already explained this to someone earlier who at least respectfully asked you why you have “changed”:

“…….Both Marty and Karen have admitted to their “Indy OSA” antics at that time.

Those were very different times. The landscape of the whole “battlefield” has completely changed, and a big reason it has completely changed is because Indy OSA has disbanded, and Marty and Karen both have begun criticizing Hubbard and the tech of Scientology itself. I believe that, since that time, Marty has himself accomplished more as a critic of Hubbard and the tech of Scientology than almost anyone else.

I’ll tell you that the 2009 Alanzo would not be proud of the 2016 Alanzo if he did not change as the landscape changed, as well…….”

One could say that Karen has been a flip flopper regarding Marty herself. Wasn’t she a stout supporter of Marty in 2009? And did she not just infer tonight that he is being either duped or used by OSA? That’s quite a shift. Of course she may counter that it was you that she was inferring to be of OSA, but the context was both you AND Marty from what I could ascertain.

Oh well….Like I said it’s just getting started over there. I don’t think I can or will watch it anymore. Too depressing.

Oh ef me! What am I thinking? We should just all go along to get along and keep fighting Scientology by not being much better than it ourselves. Yeah…that’s the ticket. Fight the cult with our own culty mindsets and practices.

(At times these forums and blogs remind me of the novel “Lord of the Flies”).

Lone Star
Guest

Well I took a look at the discussion thread on ESMB just now this morning. In some respects it didn’t denigrate as much as I thought it might. But it’s still pretty typical, meaning not good. Mainly because the bulk of the back and forth discussion is regarding personalities rather than the meat of the issues. The focus is on the “rascals” Alanzo and Marty. I don’t think there is one post that considers the merits of Carmen’s case. Actually I take that back, last night Ethercat did make a post supporting anyone who feels the need to air a grievance. Communicator IC was also pretty “fair and balanced”. But most of the rest of the posts are just the usual pap. Focus on attacking the persons rather than tackling the issues at hand. Hmmmmmm…..where have I seen that done before?

Tetloj, aka Ella, even played the good ol’ Butthurt Card. Yeah. There ya go. That’s real grown up behavior right there. Instead of debating or expressing a viewpoint about the issues, just say that the person or persons you disagree with are “Butthurt”.

What is sad is the fact that in all this “intelligent discussion” the story of Carmen Llewelyn is still under the radar. I think the view of most exes and critics who pontificate on these forums and blogs still believe that if Tony O dismissed her then she must have deserved to be dismissed.

It’s too bad because Carmen’s story and her recounting of it is quite powerful. Those who have read it have been moved.

But yeah…..Marty is a wannabe Buddha….Alanzo is a perpetual shit stirrer….and Miss Tia is a crybaby….and all are butthurt. (And may be OSAOSAOSA) Discuss!

Lone Star
Guest
NotClear2me
Guest

Not evaluating or invalidating, the first two rules of the Auditors Code are useful and also King’s English. Of course that doesn’t say never be critical – laughter

NotClear2me
Guest

The above shoulda been below Alanzo’s last comment. My “TRs were out” – laughter

TRs – Training Routines, scn confronting and communication drills

NotClear2me
Guest

Ugh – The above babble belongs below Alanzo’s reply to Ann. Eventually I’ll get blogging procedures straight.

Hayley Murfin
Guest

Thanks for addressing the issues regarding Carmen’s story Alonzo- I was also relieved to read what MIss Tia had to say. I have been deeply disappointed in the way some in the ‘critic’ community behave. Being a mere WOG- to use that ridiculous scientology term-my only real experience of scientology was being in a relationship with a scientologist for many years.My main concerns during that time were with the kind of contempt I was treated with for not wanting to join- and being belittled as a lesser being for making that decision. It made me look into what scientology was really about – and I didn’t like what I discovered. Because of that experience, I am quick to recognise similar behaviour and I have witnessed it in the critic community- a kind of arrogance and elitism which I find distasteful. I often hear others saying that we should not criticise other critics. Being an anti-scientology critic does not give you untouchable guru status- that is the same kind of adulation that got Hubbard his worshippers. The personal stories of the suffering of individuals who have been damaged by this organisation need to be made public- it should not be about gaining celebrity status.

Lone Star
Guest

Ol’ Bunny Skull, who was always one of my least favorite posters at ESMB, has proven that she truly belongs in The Bunker as she is commenting on the “mental health” of Carmen….

“…..It sounds like Carmen would do much better with professional psychological counseling rather than trying to take on a destructive media fight against the cult. She obviously wants attention and to be listened to, but she is only causing harm to herself with these antics.”

After yet another pontificating post in which she pretty much says she has Carmen all figured out and pronouncing the issue settled by saying, “The End”….Communicator IC basically puts her in her place and sums up the situation quite nicely….

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?42045-Mark-quot-Marty-quot-Rathbun-addresses-Tony-Ortega-Carmen-Llywelyn-and-Alonzo&p=1102163&viewfull=1#post1102163

Seriously Bunny Skull, is a real piece of work. She’s always had a tendency to psychoanalyze people and pronounce judgements from her self-important high perch.

One word describes her catty flakiness….Rowrrrr!!

Lone Star
Guest

This morning my first thought was to ask Alanzo to delete my post above. But I think I’ll just comment on it instead. On this the morning after, I regret getting too snarky and sarcastic toward Bunny Skull personally. I could’ve critiqued and disagreed with her posts without that stuff. Old bad habits die hard. It would’ve been better to just post a part of her comments, linked to CIC’s response and left it at that.

Make no mistake about it, for four plus years I was one of the worst on ESMB in terms of personal attacks, vitriol, and overall bad behavior. At times I took the lead in “going after” people.

I just wanted to reiterate this so that no one will think that I place myself above anyone else on any forum or blog. I’ve done a lot of introspection during the past few months and I don’t like what I observed.

I hope that many others will do a little introspection and then maybe all these message boards and blogs will become better places. But knowing human nature that probably won’t happen. I also know that I’ll never become perfect. I will struggle for the rest of my life with my habit and tendency to use snark, sarcasm, and even venom in opposing someone with whom I disagree.

I hope this made some sense.

koki
Guest

I do remember.

Big hello from KRHs Bulgravia.

Claire Swazey
Guest

Bunnyskull tends to be rather cutting but in many respects is quite bright. I enjoy some of her posts. When she’s mellow, she’s fun to read.

Ann
Guest

Alanzo, I am a long time never-in Scientology observer. I have followed Mark Bunker, Rathbun. Rinder, Ortega and anything else I can find on the subject. I live in the South so there are no Scions here. (I doubt there are any even In Atlanta). I have compassion for anyone who has gone through the trauma of Scientology. I can not pretend to understand the damage it causes people.
I do have a question. It is a question, not an insult. With some of the schisms that have occurred between different former members, I wonder why you still use Scion jargon when disagreeing with each other. I see “black PR”, “fair game” etc being thrown out a lot. I believe Miss Tia is a never-in like me and even she uses Scion terms.
I was briefly in a high control group in college, and like most cults they used their own cult-speak. I found part of my healing was to throw out any language specific to the group. It helped me to get away from that mindset. How is it useful to throw out the very words that were used to control a whole group of people in critiquing each other?
I appreciate your insight. BTW I personally don’t have a dog in this fight.

Elen
Guest

I will quickly comment and go back to my regularly scheduled lurking….

Carmen, I applaud your strength and bravery. Stay strong and know that many are sending good thoughts and vibes your way.

I stopped commenting a long while ago on ESMB, the Bunker and most all other blogs. I think all have explained better than I could on why. I’m happy to see Miss Tia!!

Alonzo …. you rock!

Lone Star
Guest

Man o’ man….no doubt about it…ESMB’s Bunny Skull is like a trophy girl for all that is mean, nasty, bitter, condemning, unfeeling, without empathy…..

First is the tail end of a very balanced and thoughtful post by CommunicatorIC followed by Bunny Skull’s bitter, nasty invective:

Quote Originally Posted by CommunicatorIC View Post

“…….Finally, while I have absolutely no inside, secret or back-door knowledge, I suspect that Carmen’s stress and, yes, anger, may have been increased by the fact that when she first complained about Tony’s statement and comments made about her on the Bunker, none of he fellow Exes or critics (including me) gave a shit.”

Bunny Skull..

“That’s right, no one gave a shit or noticed, because it was an offhanded comment on his own damn blog and NOT a big deal. But Carmen has surely rectified that situation by taking a little noted comment and endlessly bitching, writing letters, writing posts, making legal threats and generally screaming about it at the top of her lungs online for years now. If Carmen truly thought that comment harmed her then she only has herself to thank for ensuring a little noticed comment read by at most a few hundred people which would have sunk to the abyss of a disqus comment stream has now been permanently tied to her name and promoted, google indexed, discussed, reblogged and repeated endlessly online thanks to her efforts and tantrums.

Maybe she should send the comment to @the read Donald Trump and @cnn so they can retweet it to millions of followers and then victory will be hers and the majority of the western world will be aware of the comment mean old Tony’s made about her.

Christ on a jet ski. ”

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

It’s just so clear that BS never got it. She just glosses over how Tony’s “little noticed comment” led to a lot of bashing by his culty Bunkaroos. Or she’s not glossing over it and just truly has some kind of weird bitterness and strong dislike for Carmen. Very catty. And I’m not being snarky or sarcastic this time. I’m being observational.

To use the Lord of the Flies analogy…..Tony Ortega has the conch. His loyal followers take his clues and respond accordingly….as well as vie for his attention. They are not above being nasty to one another to get it at times.

It’s actually becoming more laughable to me. These are grown ass adults in their 50s, 60s and 70s acting like 12 year olds.

Lol….

beauty for ashes
Guest

Just wanted to say, that whenever someone posted a link to a new Carmen story, I frankly didn’t give a crap on whether Tony liked her or not. I thought that Carmen had a lot to say that I was interested in. Her experience is unique, and I found no reason why I should take Tony’s judgment over mine. However I never felt the need to voice that in the bunker. I have noticed a few people who would post links to her articles , and their post would be upvoted. I hope that Carmen doesn’t feel like the bunker is a brick wall of hate for her. That would make me really sad. I applaud what you are doing, and just because one journalist makes a judgment on you doesn’t make him right, and just because I’m in the bunker doesn’t mean I agree with anything and everything he says. I can get how you would feel the way you feel though. I’m sorry if I had any part in that.
<3 beauty

aint_mizbahavin
Guest

sorry its taken me so long to find your message board alanzo i do remember your posts in the bunker. and i admit to agreeing with everything you have posted.. those arguing against you are only trying to hide their own fair gaming. unlike the real world you’re never supposed to take one persons opinion think for yourself. search around read different sites. different articles. DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS.. one of the people i most admired in the bunker had the audacity to try to belittle me when i got offended at a racist post… please dont take this the wrong anyone.. but there was a meme put up of a white man who looked 13 months pregnant and a black woman who looked about 9 months pregnant and the comment was made that had the baby daddy known what she would look like 9 months down the line he might have rethought it.. i replied really ? well im damn sure that had the mans man known that once her child bearing days were over and done and he would take over giving birth. she would have re thought it.. of course the person immediately began yelling about how i dont know her and her comment was racist. which i called mountain oysters on. because if it wasnt she would have replied about both not just the black woman. boy oh boy did the claws come out.. but my claws are naturally long and strong.. and i mean that figuratively. that particular person has just tried to come at you on this board…. please dont allow their show of calm fool anyone. ive seen them in action. and they are among the top ten of sheeple

Freddie
Guest

“He has repeatedly shown his contempt and disrespect for anyone who would get themselves involved in Scientology, or in any other spiritual activity.”

I so disagree with this. I’ve seen interview after interview of Tony and he has absolute understanding of why people get drawn into scientology. I’ve never heard him show scorn or disrespect for scientologists, in or out; or that matter, of the independents.

wpDiscuz

Clicky